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Thread: Yet Another Cataclysm Arms Guide

  1. #81
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    BTW is it true that Bladestorm's damage isn't enhanced by Colossus Smash? I've been hearing Warriors QQ about it on Arena Junkies, if thats the case I"ve been losing DPS with my initial opener, Charge > Rend > Colossus Smash > Overpower > Bladestorm > Overpower

  2. #82
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    bladestorm is a single target DPS loss, regardless of whether it's affected by CS or not.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by marklar View Post
    bladestorm is a single target DPS loss, regardless of whether it's affected by CS or not.
    So why does the guides besides this one say other wise. Their opinion is that it is deals damage every 7 seconds as opposed to every 1.5 sec globals.

  4. #84
    Not sure how this will effect your guide in terms of the stance dancing, but if you go from Battle to Beserker (or vice versa for fury for whatever reason) you will loose any stacks of the 4P bonus you had, dunno if this end up loosing you the same DPS you'd gain by dancing.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    So why does the guides besides this one say other wise. Their opinion is that it is deals damage every 7 seconds as opposed to every 1.5 sec globals.
    Well, if you haven't noticed Marklar disagrees with a lot of the guide =p.

    Oddly enough I was under the impression that BS was a single target dps loss as well, now that IR got redesigned.

    As for your original question, while looking non-AJ sites for information about CS and BS, I did come across a bug report that CS on one target caused you to ignore the armor on all BS targets.

    So that seems to contradict what AJ was complaining about, unless the bug reporter was just confused armor was instead being applied for all BS targets (totally possible, didn't see a response to the bug report).

    I didn't see anything on EJ about BS / CS interaction being weird, although their thread is a giant jumble...

  6. #86
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    I've been using BS merely as a rage gaining cooldown when my other abilities are on CD and preferrably after a CS.

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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muffin Man View Post
    Well, if you haven't noticed Marklar disagrees with a lot of the guide =p.
    ha! i like to argue because it's a great way to really get into the details of something. in fact, i may sometimes take a contrary position not because i truly disagree, but simply to learn more details (or lack thereof) from which the original statement was made.

    guides are great, but it's ok (even recommended, imo) to question them. i looked at BS by itself, and i don't see how it's a dps gain. yes, it hits every second, but it's synergy with the rest of the rotation is lacking. the damage it does, even when multiplied by 1.5x, is below everything else, as far as i can figure. look at some of the logs linked in this thread and tell me what you think.

    as kaz mentioned, it can be used as a rage cooldown, although secondary to DC, since DC is a dps increase.

  8. #88
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    I have a really, really stupid question, please bear with me.

    What does it mean to keep crit and mastery fairly close together? Does it mean the absolutes (as in, 1500 each just as an example) or the values (for example, 13% crit and 13.00 mastery rating)?

    Sorry, I'm being slow here or perhaps it's because English isn't my first language.

  9. #89
    There are major mistakes in your guide. Example : dodged or parried autohits do generate rage and dodged or parried yellow hits cost almost no rage. This is ONE of the reasons, why expertise is almost nothing worth.

    And SimC calculations are pretty much screwed. Less than 10% slam is not realistic. Arms is now pretty much on the same level as Fury at DPS, maybe even slightly above plus given advantages of Arms tree.

  10. #90
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    I can do about 18k DPS sustained with badly optimized gems/chants and mostly 359 epic gear on argaloth now from 100-60% without lust or execute phase (died cause it's a lolpug). It's still godawful compared to any real dps of the same gear however.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disruptor View Post
    There are major mistakes in your guide. Example : dodged or parried autohits do generate rage and dodged or parried yellow hits cost almost no rage. This is ONE of the reasons, why expertise is almost nothing worth.

    So your saying if a yellow hit is parried or dodged then youre refunded a proportion of your rage?
    news to me where did you find this information

    Also you are forgetting the loss of a global cooldown plus the loss of damage of that swing plus the loss of oppertunity strikes plus the loss of an enrage chance if it was an MS
    made up for by one extra OP even without the rage concern id still say this is far from worthless....

    just been lookin around and EJ/mmo etc etc all point to Dodged / parried hits generating NO rage in cata.
    im unaware that this has been changed???
    Last edited by woodyman; 02-23-2011 at 06:33 AM.

  12. #92
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    When has it ever been beneficial to have multiple attacks dodged or parried? Woodyman is right, the risk of losing a GCD, possibility of being enraged, losing a chance at a free extra attack, plus losing the damage of the original attack far outweighs getting an extra Overpower in.

    I'll take my 26 expertise and an Overpower every 6 seconds, thank you.

  13. #93
    Just incredible how fcked the wow community is. Keep your expertise and have fun with it. I keep my 29k DPS Alakir HC 10s and lol at the second guy in dps beeing 5k dps lower than me.

    This is no new information. If you do not believe it, go check yourself. I'm tired of proving every little shit. Take this as an advice and dont be so mindfcked and believe anything from a guy who can write 2 pages of guide or thinks he is the math master because he invented some obvious crap . I'm tired of those wannabes who think they master their spec. Just as the fact, that mastery is almost as bad as haste. Haste gets worse in fights with incoming dmg and gets attractive after you reached a specific crit softcap or the mastery hardcap. And expertise is beneath crit. You can even rely on SimC on these easy facts but not more, since SimC priority system is totally screwed.

    cheers @ kaze

    oh and @pseudocide:
    exp cap in Wotlk was almost a dps loss, but whatever
    Last edited by Disruptor; 02-23-2011 at 12:34 PM.

  14. #94
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    Watch the language, there's no need to resort to that, if you want to participate in this discussion I'd like to see these 29k dps logs to prove your not just blowing smoke.

    Also, you still don't address the fact that getting an MS dodged, loss of opportunity strikes, or as I've said multiple times, getting a colossus smash dodged outweighs getting an extra overpower.

    You know, you did this same kind of unfounded spouting of "everyone is wrong, i'm correct, but i'm too lazy to prove shit to anyone" in the Hold the Line thread as well trying to disprove the hit table. Come back with some proof, or stay out of discussions because it's really not the point of these forums to prove trolls wrong of their unfounded assumptions after people have put the time/effort to actually lay down foundations for us to base our gameplay on.
    Last edited by Kazeyonoma; 02-23-2011 at 12:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
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  15. #95
    You know what is actually very strange. This way of thinking is illogical. If I am the guy writing a guide, I am responsible to prove that my assumptions are right.
    It is not my task to prove here that his guide has wrong facts ( which are pretty easy to show ). It is his task to show that his facts are not wrong. Otherwise I could write a guide myself ( which I told you something about in the PM ).

    And I don't have to address anything. I'm not going go write a half spreadsheet just to show that expertise is nothing worth. Therefore you have SimC which is "okay". But just by using some easy facts you can possibly imagine how bad expertise is. The worse fact about miss is the loss of rage. That fact is so essential and the only difference between hit and expertise besides OP so you can imagine expertise is at least beneath STR. You gain an extra OP with dodge and the crit values you have right now are so ridic. low that you do not have to look at enrage. The LttS redesign favours less expertise. And you are not nearly GCD capped without incoming DMG or huge amounts of haste. So overall a dodged slam / HS and even MS are a dps win compared to the rating you can trade into crit. Missing expertise is even efficient because you trade a 20-25 rage style into a 7-8 rage style by losing 1.0 sec which is not even a full GCD, giving you more rage than you had without the dodge to spend in further rotation. If you want to dig deep into theory it is even less important to lose 1 sec because in most cases of our rotation between 2 MS we lose 0.5 sec anyway.
    Numbers and simulations have shown that expertise is even much worse than crit.
    Last edited by Disruptor; 02-23-2011 at 01:09 PM.

  16. #96
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    While I won't argue that it is the author of the guide that needs to be correct, you throwing out baseless assumptions is just as useless.

    You claim 29k dps, but have no logs to prove it.

    And you still fail to address my Colossus smash problem.

    Yes it is news to me that getting dodged/parried on a yellow attack refunds 80% of the rage back, this was NOT the norm prior to cata, and was not documented in any patch, so it was something that went in, and largely went undocumented probably because the majority of players got expertise capped to avoid getting dodged in the first place. That DOES down the value of expertise, my fears are still in letting sunder armor debuff falling off because of colossus smash dodge, the lack of colossus smash debuff for instant dps boost on dodge, as well as MS getting dodged, and thus losing chance at enrage, as well as losing lamb buff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
    http://i.imgur.com/3vbQi.gif

  17. #97
    Dude wth. If in cases of HS, Slam, MS, dodges it is a dps win the dps loss by a dodged CS will never outweigh the dps win.

    Losing SA due to a CS dodge is not realistic. Usually you have a CS ready every 13-14 seconds with decent gear. 2 CS must have been dodged to lose SA and anyways reapplying is only 1GCD which does not hurt Arms too much in most fights. In addition you can even glyph HT for that case for filling that GCD with damage. Slaughter will never ever fall off by dodged MS when you use it on CD. 0.065^3 = 0.02%. I think you can agree that this chance is pretty low.

    And I wont make my Logs public by now. Because too many abuses and DPS wins are not open to the wide community. Why should I sacrifice those secrets? I would make my advantage become useless and decrease my value of playing. My guild should have a reason to stick to me and my qualities. There were even things in ICC I could abuse to be WoL #1 without having half of my gear BiS ( and no, I am not talking about unholy frenzy or buff abuses outside of raids).

    ( and just to clarify the meaning of troll. I don't make myself a troll when you can't prove the opposite of my assumptions. You rather make yourself a troll just to block those assumptions because somewhere in the world somebody is always smarter than you And I was just thinking of my Hold the Line posts, well if they changed dodged or parried hits maybe they even changed the hit-table. Ever thought of that ? I did not digged deep enough into my Hold the Line assumption because I wont get the gear in the next time that it might affect my tanking because I switched my role. If i have some spare time I will get back to that or in the meantime any of those EJ-Pros will find it out...)

    PS: i dont know what you were doing in Wotlk, but norm Str was 1.00 , exp about 0.1 at wotlk.
    And it is not necessary to take Enrage into account at all since melee hit-table is a 1 roll-system.
    Last edited by Disruptor; 02-23-2011 at 02:38 PM.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disruptor View Post
    I'm tired of proving every little shit.
    you have 37 total posts; you can't have put that much effort into it.

    there are no arms warriors listed in WoL in heroic Al'akir, and the highest in normal is 24k (with no dodges, btw). if you are claiming 29k, then you should be able to back it up - it's not for everyone else to prove you can't do 29k. if i claim i did 50k, does that make it real?

    OP does not hit that much harder than other attacks, and so it makes no sense that just getting an OP proc would make up for not only the loss of damage, but also the lost opportunity of buffs that proc from other attacks. you don't have any kind of explanation why this would be a dps increase.

    link your logs.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by marklar View Post

    OP does not hit that much harder than other attacks, and so it makes no sense that just getting an OP proc would make up for not only the loss of damage, but also the lost opportunity of buffs that proc from other attacks. you don't have any kind of explanation why this would be a dps increase.
    Which would that be you whiz ? And I am sure you took DW munching into account. Same for the average rage left over which can be transfered into average slams until GCDcap and HS. Which would give you even more hits than a non dodged style at the end.
    Gimme it hard plox 8).

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disruptor View Post
    Which would that be you whiz ? And I am sure you took DW munching into account. Same for the average rage left over which can be transfered into average slams until GCDcap and HS. Which would give you even more hits than a non dodged style at the end.
    Gimme it hard plox 8).
    I feel stupider for having tried to read this.

    Stop posting.

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