+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 13 1 2 3 11 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 252

Thread: Yet Another Cataclysm Arms Guide

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    740

    Yet Another Cataclysm Arms Guide (4.3)


    Yet Another Catalysm Arms Warrior Guide
    Last Updated: December 12, 2011 (4.3) Correctness and freshness not guaranteed past this date

    My name is shiz98, and this is a guide. It covers:
    • Talents
    • Glyphs
    • Rotation
    • Stats/Gearing
    • Questions
    There are also appendices for relatively useless things:
    • Stance Dancing for Fun and Profit
    and that's it.

    Note: To be brief, Arms theorycrafting tends to be underdeveloped. As such, you should make a point of checking around every couple months to see if the community has figured out any improvements to the spec. Note that this guide may not be accurately updated in the future to reflect these refinements, as I'm just not able to predict what kind of time I'll be able to commit to it.

    The Spec

    The image below is of the Warrior talent trees (god help you if you didn't recognize them). In fact, it's actually an image of my DPS spec. You'll notice that, unusually, there are some blue boxes in there too (god help you if you didn't see them). Here's the deal: in this modern era, we really don't have any bad talents in the tree, which gives us a lot of choice. I'll be talking about those choices below, but the blue talents are not choices, and you should always max them out in any spec you make.



    Optional Talents
    Field Dressing – Pretty good. Not overwhelmingly good, but your healers will like it.
    Blitz – A nice rage boost to your charge, and the stun could be good or bad depending on how you like to PvP/PvE
    Tactical Mastery – If you stance dance, or PvP at all, this ability is incredible. Also very useful for letting you use Intervene.
    Second Wind – Almost useless in PvE
    Drums of War – You may want to consider picking this up if you're a main interrupter a lot. You'll have 10 rage lying around about 90% of the time even while maintaining your regular rotation, but this gives some peace of mind for that last 10%.
    Sweeping Strikes – Combined with the glyph, this ability is fantastic for AoEing. Very much worth the one point, in my opinion.
    Improved Hamstring – For PvE? No thanks.
    Throwdown – Good as an emergency interrupt on weaker mobs. Also handy in 5-mans. If you're looking for maximum raid utility, skip it.
    Blood Craze – Ehhh, no.
    Executioner – Overall a small DPS increase, but noticable during Execute range. Worth taking if you find yourself with extra talent points. (See Page 4 for discussion)
    Booming Voice – Good if you're struggling with rage, but you'll do better if you solve that by gearing.
    Rude Interruption – On fights with interrupts, a 5% damage increase. Fantastic.
    Piercing Howl – There aren't too many applications for this in 4.3 raiding, but you may want it for the occasional 5 man or solo play.
    Blood and Thunder – Glorious for AoE.

    The Glyphs

    Prime
    Who loves the illusion of choice? I know I do:

    Glyph of Mortal Strike
    Glyph of Overpower
    Glyph of Slam

    Major
    You do have a choice here, and what you choose will actually impact your playstyle a bit.

    Glyph of Cleaving – Good for AoEing
    Glyph of Colossus Smash – Do you look like a (Sunder) bitch? If so, this is the glyph for you! New in 4.3: applies sunder instead of just refreshing it, which is awesome.
    Glyph of Heroic Throw – Not really useful now that Colossus Smash applies sunder
    Glyph of Long Charge – Somewhat useful if you're running around a lot
    Glyph of Piercing Howl – Kinda useful if you have Piercing Howl
    Glyph of Rapid Charge – I think we can do better...
    Glyph of Sweeping Strikes – Like this glyph. I love it, I really do.

    Minor
    Nobody really cares what you put here, and neither do I. Here are some popular choices:

    Glyph of Battle
    Glyph of Berserker Rage – Can be useful for helping with rage generation if used properly.
    Glyph of Furious Sundering
    Glyph of Intimidating Shout – aka "AoE CC for Pansies"

    The Rotation

    I'm going to do something a little different here, and forego the usual priority queue format. Instead, we're going to talk about threads. You're going to want to weave these threads together when you do your DPS — don't just blindly follow the priorites. Instead you should be actively thinking about your rotation and planning ahead. It's important for each one of these threads to happen perfectly, and it's your job to make sure that happens.

    The first thread in your rotation is Rend. This is very simple: maintain Rend. Since 4.1 this is significantly easier, since Mortal Strike does all the hard work for you. If all hell breaks loose and it looks like Rend is going to fall before you can MS again, let it. It's less of a DPS loss to reapply than to refresh.

    The second thread is Mortal Strike; you want to hit this as soon as it comes off CD, but not at the expense of Rend.

    Third, we have Overpower. Unlike Rend and Mortal Strike, you don't need to worry about firing OP off as soon as possible; you've actually got a 6s window in which to use it. This lets you maximize both your MS damage and your OP damage, because any time using OP would conflict with MS (or Rend for that matter), you can afford to hold back a couple seconds before using the TfB proc.

    The filler in between the ability usage here is Slam. Any time you're not using one of the above mentioned abilities, you should be slamming away.

    The final piece of the puzzle here is Colossus Smash. The damage portion of this ability sucks — it's worse than Slam, and more expensive. Its real value is the 6s of zero armor it provides you. As such, you're going to want to use it when you can make maximum usage of it: right before Mortal Strike. Ideally your CS usage timing should be such that you can do this:

    0s CS
    1.5s MS
    3s OP
    4s Slam
    5.5s OP/Slam


    You should sit on any Sudden Death proc until you're able to set up that kind of ability schedule. Most importantly (so even if you screw up and hit CS when you're not supposed to), don't overlap CS. Yeah, you might "waste" a Sudden Death proc. That's life.

    Bladestorm
    You shouldn't use this on one mob. Two or more, go for it. On any fight with an AoE phase, save it for that.

    Cooldowns
    You've got Deadly Calm, which you should combine with your trinkets and ideally a CS. I'd recommend popping your trinkets, CSing, bringing your rage down to 0 (via copious Heroic Strike usage), and then hitting Deadly Calm and going hog wild. Once DC wears off, pop Recklessness to make the most use of that 100 rage you've built up.

    When DC is active you should be spamming Slam and Heroic Strike like a champion — just make sure you take note of when DC wears off so you don't kill off your Rage entirely.

    When should I use Shattering Throw?
    During Heroism, you selfish jerk. On long enough fights you may be able to get two of these off, so play it by ear. If you're not using it during heroism you should at the very least make sure you pop a CD to get the best usage out of it. You should also be telling your raid when it's up, to give other physical dps a chance to pop their CD's.

    Execute Range

    Mortal Strike goes way down on your priority list. In fact, you should really only use it to maintain Rend/Lambs to the Slaughter. You still want to keep using Overpower, but drop Slam from your rotation entirely. Instead, you're going to be spending all your hard-earned rage on 30 Rage Executes. Emphasis on the 30 Rage. If you have less than 30 rage? Don't Execute. The ability does the most damage per rage at 30.

    The Stats

    The basic rundown:
    • Hit to cap (8% on character sheet)
    • Strength
    • Crit
    • Mastery
    • Expertise (cap is 26 Exp on character sheet)
    • Haste
    But don't just follow that blindly! Instead, you should be aware of the...

    Details
    First off, you're probably noticing that hit has a strangely high priority, since we no longer have to worry about missing interrupts. See, we use expertise as a rage generating stat (in place of the eternally awful haste). As it turns out, if you cap your hit you're generating pretty much all the rage you need (combine that with a windfury buff and you're almost certainly good in a raid situation) — this is why Hit is on the top. Expertise used to be up there too, but it turns out that it doesn't affect your rage generation, which makes it a more mediocre stat when you factor in Overpower being usable on dodges. You don't want to ignore it completely, but there's no real need to cap it.

    Next up we have Strength, with is basically your go-to stat for everything. It's hard to actively shoot for Strength since it just kind of shows up on gear, but you should fill all red sockets with it, and get Strength trinkets if possible.

    From there we really only have three stats to choose from: Mastery, Crit, and Haste. Haste is really bad, and you should strive to have none of it. Mastery and Crit and actually pretty even in terms of DPS gain. At lower levels of gear, Crit is a little bit better than Mastery, but I'd guess it's the other way around after this raiding tier. All in all, you should strive to have a good balance of both Crit and Mastery; don't just pick up one and ignore the other.

    So, what should I look for in gear?
    A very good question.

    Are you not hit capped? Look for gear with hit and crit/mastery/expertise
    Are you not expertise capped? Look for gear with crit/mastery/expertise
    Are you hit and expertise capped? Look for gear with crit and mastery

    What about gems?
    Pretty much the same as the above:

    If it's red, put an STR gem in it.
    If it's yellow, use STR unless you want the socket bonus, or you're trying to get a meta bonus.
    If it's blue, use Hit if you're not hitcapped, otherwise an STR or Stam/STR gem (depending on whether you need a socket bonus)

    And reforging?
    Generally speaking, reforge intelligently using the stat priorities above. It's not worth reforging Crit or Mastery to the other, but you should always reforge Haste into something better (though ideally none of your gear should have haste).

    If you're low on expertise, you should get there via reforging rather than gemming, as it allows you to put those oh-so-good STR gems in your red sockets.

    Questions

    I read something somewhere that contradicts something in this guide. Who's right?
    If it's from anywhere other than Elitist Jerks, it's probably wrong (seriously, Arms is really misunderstood in most places). I'd trust EJ over this guide, but don't go crazy.

    Ok but why?

    In all honesty, because people tend to approach writing these guides without a whole lot of rigor behind the gearing/rotation suggestions they make. I've made a concerted effort to back up anything I suggest here with some actual theorycrafting, so I'm pretty confident in what I suggest. Yes, there will be something in this guide that will be proven wrong down the line; that's a guarantee. But as a whole, I believe this guide to be the most accurate guide to Arms at the time of writing. Call me arrogant

    Where else should I go to stay up-to-date on Arms, or if I have questions?
    Right here on the Tankspot DPS forum is a good place to go. There are a lot of warriors here who have much more experience than I, and who know their class inside and out.

    The only other place that I'd recommend is Elitist Jerks, and even then I'd only recommend it to those who are really, really serious about their class, and who aren't put off by maths and heavy analysis. It's not a good place to ask questions, but there are some very smart people there posting in the warrior threads, and you're guaranteed to find some good information over the course of the expansion if you can stomach the superthread approach they take.

    Appendix A – Stance Dancing for Fun and Profit

    Fact: Berserker Stance makes you do 5% more damage than Battle Stance. As Arms, you can leverage that fact you have greatly improved stance dancing thanks to Tactical Mastery to spend some time in Berserker Stance, which will net you a DPS increase.

    First, the caveat: this is a fairly small DPS increase (in practice, something like 3-4%), so if the added complexity is going to make you mess up your rotation or do a poor job of watching fight mechanics, it's not worth it.

    If you're game, all you really need to do is start stance dancing around your OP usage. In fact, what you really want to be doing is sitting in Berserker Stance by default, and dancing to Battle Stance only to use OP. This will increase your white damage and Strikes of Opportunity damage to as much as possible.

    Here's a sample timeline:
    Code:
    0.0s   Rend (TfB Proc)
      Stance Dance to Berserker
    1.5s CS
    3.0s MS
      Stance Dance to Battle
    4.5s OP
      Stance Dance to Berserker
    6.0s Slam (TfB Proc)
    7.5s MS
      Stance Dance to Battle
    9.0s OP
      Stance Dance to Berserker
    10.5s Slam
    12.0s MS (TfB Proc)
    Practice, practice, practice. Training dummies are your friend. If you can get really good with timing your TfB procs, you should get pretty close to the ideal 5% DPS bonus.

    Aside: This got a whole lot easier in 4.1.

    Update History

    Jan 29, 2011: Fixed up gemming, and added a bit of reforging info (thanks to klausi for corrections!)
    Feb 9, 2011: Changed the wording for some glyphs/talents (based on others' posts in this thread)
    Jun 22, 2011: Updated for 4.2 — Mostly rotation/gearing
    Dec 12, 2011: Updated for 4.3 — A few tweaks/typo fixes, and updated Glyph of Colossus Smash info

    This is almost certainly the last update for the expansion.

    The End
    Last edited by shiz98; 12-12-2011 at 05:34 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    740
    Any and all feedback is appreciated!

    Keep in mind that this guide is written assuming 4.0.6 is live, so it may not be entirely correct for the next week or two until the patch is released.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    40
    Well, you could have said the 4.0.6. bit earlier. You confused me. :P

    Care to clarify the Executioner part? Everyone says something different, but being that you are talking about the 4.0.6., maybe you know something interesting from the PTRs.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    740
    Once you hit Execute Range as Arms, you actually don't want to use Execute at all. Its damage is subpar right now, and when those new Arms changes go live (specifically Lambs to the Slaughter), you're going to be way better off ignoring it. This all makes Executioner a pretty weak talent. Actually, I suppose "useless" wouldn't be too strong a word.

    Regarding the 4.0.6 thing... yeahhh, sorry about that. I figure the patch goes live Tuesday, and all this stuff should still be mostly relevant right now, so I didn't worry too much about being careful with the timing.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    16,438
    stickied!

    READ THIS: Posting & Chat Rules
    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
    http://i.imgur.com/3vbQi.gif

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1

    spell pen

    what is this blue gemming strat ? - with spell pen ??? - i´ve never seen this before.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,132
    Expertise to cap (14 Exp on character sheet)
    ^ 14? What about 26? The talent in arms reducing dodge chance is long gone.

    combine that with a windfury buff and you're almost certainly good in a raid situation
    ^ windfury is only 10% haste, that's it. Doesn't act like mastery in ages.

    If it's red and you're not expertise capped, put an Exp. gem in it
    ^ why not reforge for it and hitcap while using strength (major stat) everywhere like all other dps classes do?

    If it's yellow and you're not hitcapped, put a Hit gem in it

    ^ hit changed to blue with cata, mastery and crit remain yellow

    If it's blue, Spell Penetration
    ^ c&p?
    Last edited by klausi; 01-29-2011 at 05:12 AM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    12

    Re: Yet Another Cataclysm Arms Guide

    This guide is wrong on so many levels I don't know where to start.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    740
    14? What about 26? The talent in arms reducing dodge chance is long gone.
    Durr, math fail.

    windfury is only 10% haste, that's it. Doesn't act like mastery in ages.
    Even 10% haste is a pretty significant (10% actually :P) buff to your rage generation, and should be more than enough to bump you over the rage minimum.

    hit changed to blue with cata, mastery and crit remain yellow
    Right you are! Sometimes, I write on autopilot. Heh, I've even gemmed for hit this expansion...
    what is this blue gemming strat ? - with spell pen ??? - i´ve never seen this before.
    Just a little joke, is all . I tried to pick something that would be blatantly wrong so as not to confuse people. You should fill blue slots with STR if you don't need the socket bonus, or Stam/STR if you do.

    why not reforge for it and hitcap while using strength (major stat) everywhere like all other dps classes do?
    This... this is a good idea.

    This guide is wrong on so many levels I don't know where to start.
    Seriously, please post any corrections or issues you have with the guide (or PM me if you prefer) so that I can improve it.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,132
    If it's blue, use Hit if you're not hitcapped, otherwise an STR or Stam/STR gem (depending on whether you need a socket bonus)
    ^ str/hit is purple, counts for both red and blue That's the reason why they changed it so you don't have to use x/stamina in your blue sockets while playing dps any longer.

    For yellow you can and should use either str/crit or str/mastery if the socket bonus is no +haste. Might change with 4.0.6 and hasted slam.

    Glyph of Berserker Rage is actually quite nice because it's 5 rage off gcd every 30s and can help you when messed up your ragepool. There are no fearing bosses around so why saving or worring about it?

    And you didn't say a word about incite. With your advice to not us execute during sub 20% phase, getting more than cruelty from fury gives you either blood craze or easier rage management via battle trance. But having 15% more HS crits + guaranteed hs crit follow up looks way more appealing than a situational aoe slow that other classes can provide with their regular speccs, too. But i really don't get why you wouldn't want to execute at all (reread your sudden death description!) making the executioner talent very appealing to me.
    Last edited by klausi; 01-30-2011 at 12:44 PM.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    740
    Haha, thanks klausi. I haven't been keeping up with the gem changes as well as I should have been, as you've noticed :P.

    Glyph of Berserker Rage is actually quite nice because it's 5 rage off gcd every 30s and can help you when messed up your ragepool. There are no fearing bosses around so why saving or worring about it?
    I stopped using it after 4.0, as for 5-mans and PvP I was just hitting it every 30s on autopilot and it screwed me over. In my experience it's not really that useful from a rage perspective, and I've found the habit just screwed me over all too often. At the end of the day though, I'm not really recommending anyone not take it; just my own experience with the glyph. Maybe I should clean up that wording...

    But having 15% more HS crits + guaranteed hs crit follow up looks way more appealing than a situational aoe slow that other classes can provide with their regular speccs, too.
    The idea is to really cut back heavily on the HS usage, as it has a weak damage/rage ratio, especially in patch 4.0.6 (relative to the Lambs changes). Without any haste, you really won't have much HS usage at all, and haste is bad enough that gearing it for extra HS isn't worth it. This makes incite fairly weak.

    But i really don't get why you wouldn't want to execute at all (reread your sudden death description!) making the executioner talent very appealing to me.
    The damage execute does is just super lame. You've got much more powerful modifiers on Slam, Overpower, Rend, and even Mortal Strike, even moreso when that 30% Lambs to the Slaughter buff goes live (as the difference now gets increased by 30%). Given that you should have enough rage to maintain your normal rotation and fill every GCD, Execute doesn't even look that attractive despite its situationally superior rage:damage ratio.

    Of course, Executioner may still be worthwhile because you can just toss out an execute every once in a while to maintain the stacks. Problem is, that 25% haste bonus is going to have a tiny direct effect on your DPS, and the bonus rage is just going to go into HS. This nets out to a heroic strike roughly every 12 seconds, so maybe 700 dps, tops? That's not fantastic when you consider that you're losing DPS by using Execute in your rotation. So maybe a couple hundred DPS if used perfectly, which isn't much to write home about.

    That said, I actually plan on taking a closer look at execute range when I get the chance... feels like the interaction between Execute and Heroic Strike may be worth modifying the rotation/spec a bit for.

    The caveat for speccing around Execute is that you might be dropping DPS for 80% if the fight in favor of doing more the last 20%. This may be beneficial on some fights, harmful on the others, and may just plain be a DPS loss overall.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    339
    Quote Originally Posted by shiz98 View Post
    Once you hit Execute Range as Arms, you actually don't want to use Execute at all. Its damage is subpar right now, and when those new Arms changes go live (specifically Lambs to the Slaughter), you're going to be way better off ignoring it. This all makes Executioner a pretty weak talent. Actually, I suppose "useless" wouldn't be too strong a word.
    say what? i would really like to see some math to back this up. execute seems like a great use of a GCD. besides that, 25% attack speed bonus? yes please (how can you say it's not that great?).

    glyph of HT not good? it's great on fights with no adds - saves you 1 GCD to start the fight.

    rude interruption - most of the time, 1 point = 2 points

    drums has nothing to do with being a main interrupter - if the fight has interrupts, the points are a dps increase. 10 rage is 10 rage.

    zerker rage is the ONLY mandatory minor glyph - use it anytime you get rage starved, not on cooldown, like you were trying to do.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    2,067
    Quote Originally Posted by marklar View Post
    zerker rage is the ONLY mandatory minor glyph - use it anytime you get rage starved, not on cooldown, like you were trying to do.
    5 rage is not going to help you not be rage starved. learning the right times to slam and/or hs will help you alot more than 5 rage on zerker rage use....

    execute is a bad use of a global for arms. it hits like crap and uses 30 rage, doesn't apply lambs, and spamming it will leave you without the rage to even keep cs, rend, ms, and op going. you can use it if you have 2/2 executioner to stack the buff and replace a slam when you need to keep the buff stacked, but to say execute is a great use of a global is wrong.

    the only time ht glyph is good is if you are the only one that can apply the debuff, which if that's true you will be the only one benefiting from it. if you don't have a prot warrior in your raid, no druids of any kind, no rogues, or any hunters, then you can just use sunder and not reset your swing timer by using ht.

    there are no other places to pull points from to pick up 2/2 drums so idk where you are getting points from for that.
    -Jimmy

    |Ex Tank|

    TWITCH.TV STREAM


  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    740
    Execute numbers, assuming a 552 DPS weapon at 3.6s speed, 10k AP and 20% crit.

    Modifiers assuming additive stacking, since I don't know offhand. It's more conservative, so it should favor Execute
    Execute 130%
    MS 155%
    OP 140%
    Slam 165%

    Crit Bonuses
    MS 10%
    Slam 5%
    OP 60%
    Incite is a 20% bonus to crit damage to MS, Slam, and OP

    Misc
    Weapon damage = 4344
    Deep Wounds damage = 2844

    [b]Base Damage[b] formulas slightly modified for simplicity's sake
    Execute10 = 10 + AP * 0.437 = 4380
    Execute30 = 10 + AP * 1.32 = 13210
    MS = 1.5 * WD + 423 = 6939
    OP = 1.25 * WD = 5430
    Slam = 1.74 * WD + 748 = 8307

    Damage w/ Modifiers
    Execute10 = 5694
    Execute30 = 17173
    MS = 10756
    OP = 7602
    Slam = 13707

    Damage w/ Crit Bonus
    Execute10= 5694
    Execute30 = 17173
    MS = 12331
    OP = 14782
    Slam = 14672

    Damage w/ Incite Bonus
    Execute10 = 5694
    Execute30 = 17173
    MS = 12761
    OP = 15086
    Slam = 14255

    In a 6s cycle you've got 1 OP, 2 MS, and 1 Slam for a resulting rage cost of ~65 (factoring rough slam delay cost). In the same cycle you could burn that rage on two Execute30's and one OP:

    Execute damage:
    17173 * 2 + 15086 = 49,432

    Normal damage:
    12761 * 2 + 15086 + 14255 = 54,863

    That's a difference of 905 dps. I'll admit, it's actually closer than I originally thought. Keep in mind that this is pretty much the ideal Execute usage, and you'll probably never see that usage in the real world.
    Last edited by shiz98; 01-31-2011 at 01:05 PM. Reason: Formatting

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    339
    Quote Originally Posted by Destruyen View Post
    5 rage is not going to help you not be rage starved. learning the right times to slam and/or hs will help you alot more than 5 rage on zerker rage use....
    my point is it's the only minor glyph that can make any difference at all (outside of one of the shout glyphs if you're responsible for the buff). 5 rage has often been the difference to me for being able to get that MS on cooldown or delaying it; it allows me to be just slightly more aggressive knowing i have that 5 rage buffer (off the GCD) when i need it.

    to say we shouldn't glyph it because "it makes you use zerker rage on fights when you shouldn't" makes little sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destruyen View Post
    execute is a bad use of a global for arms. it hits like crap and uses 30 rage, doesn't apply lambs, and spamming it will leave you without the rage to even keep cs, rend, ms, and op going. you can use it if you have 2/2 executioner to stack the buff and replace a slam when you need to keep the buff stacked, but to say execute is a great use of a global is wrong.
    i didn't say execute spam - i still keep up CS buff and the slaughter buff. but looking at a recent log, my average OP (usually with LttS) was 19,829, my average MS (usually without LttS) was 13,964 (bump it up to 18,153 after patch), my average slam was 13,279, and my average execute was 32,103. that still seems like a nice use of a GCD to me. slam is getting boosted, but not to that extent.

    and it's not 30 rage, it's minimum 10, maximum 30, but always leaves you with 10 after (the damage/rage is linear). you can keep up your rotation, IF you keep up the executioner buff, which the OP called "honestly, not that great". 25% haste is equivalent to 3203 haste rating that is up constantly for 20% of the fight, for TWO talent points - it seems great to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destruyen View Post
    the only time ht glyph is good is if you are the only one that can apply the debuff, which if that's true you will be the only one benefiting from it. if you don't have a prot warrior in your raid, no druids of any kind, no rogues, or any hunters, then you can just use sunder and not reset your swing timer by using ht.
    glyphs are situational, and now we don't even need to carry stacks of them around. for any fight where you don't need the cleave glyph, HT is good. don't worry about resetting your swing timer, because you don't use it during the fight. HT as you're moving in and save yourself 1 GCD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destruyen View Post
    there are no other places to pull points from to pick up 2/2 drums so idk where you are getting points from for that.
    tactical mastery, although to be fair, i haven't tried stance dancing yet, so i can't compare.

    there is some good information here so don't take this the wrong way, but as far as a definitive arms guide i don't think this is good enough for a sticky. if you're going to author "the most accurate guide to Arms", you're going to need to back up your ideas with logs. if your way is really the way to go, it should be easy to see the results. even something as simple as argaloth would be fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by shiz98 View Post
    In a 6s cycle you've got 1 OP, 2 MS, and 1 Slam for a resulting rage cost of ~65 (factoring rough slam delay cost). In the same cycle you could burn that rage on two Execute30's and one OP:
    btw, you've compared a 5.5s cycle with a 4.0s cycle - not exactly apples to apples.
    Last edited by marklar; 01-31-2011 at 04:41 PM.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    16,438
    I'll just leave it stickied for now so it's available for people to discuss it more. I'll admit i didn't read through it entirely before sticking it, but shiz is someone I've come to count on for good info, and he'll obviously fix any discrepencies that you guys find.

    READ THIS: Posting & Chat Rules
    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
    http://i.imgur.com/3vbQi.gif

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    your moms house
    Posts
    1,619
    Id have to say i agree with malkar on the glyph of berserker rage. 5 rage is 5 rage. regardless of when you use it. it gives a little bit of rage.
    It would be good practice to monitor your usage of it so you dont run into cases where you cant get out of a fear.

    Shiz, i dont see the haste bonus added into your math for execute usage. Also, are you adding in the benefits with deadly calm uptime? Execute damage weaved in at 0 rage cost.. im sure execute hits harder than something.

    And on the glyph of heroic throw. With devastate being so low on the prot warriors threat rotation. being able to add a stack at the start of the fight, and refresh it here or there in the fight, it doesnt seem like that bad of an idea to pick this up. The less the prot warrior has to trade a better ability for devastate in their rotation, the more threat they can do. I dont see this as a big deal.. but it does help. this allso assumes your using a prot warrior, if your not.. this glyph is a no brianer

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    16,438
    execute bypasses deadly calm, it costs rage regardless.

    READ THIS: Posting & Chat Rules
    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
    http://i.imgur.com/3vbQi.gif

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    740
    Hm. I'd written out a long post addressing the above posts, but I don't really want to start posting more long, errr, posts (have I said posts enough?). Now, normally I'd make a concerted effort to be fair and cordial, and to approach writing from a position of humility as much as possible. However, I'm going to sacrifice all that for brevity. Sorry if this offends anyone...

    First, I want to give us some context here: the things we're discussing as inaccurate in this guide are:
    • A minor glyph
    • A major glyph
    • Execute range and the resulting talenting

    And of course the gemming section, which I hastily threw together out of memory, which turned to be horribly bad.

    What no one's debated thusfar are:
    • Stat priorities
    • Non-execute rotation
    • 95% of the talents

    Which are the most important parts of the guide. Amortized, the DPS difference we're talking about is something in the low hundreds (and that's assuming I'm proven wrong, of which I'm not yet convinced). That hardly invalidates the whole guide.

    if your way is really the way to go, it should be easy to see the results
    This isn't always the case. For example, those of you arguing that Glyph of Berserker Rage is mandatory would be hard-pressed to collect enough data to show it, regardless of the strength of your argument.

    --

    Returning to the Execute debate...

    btw, you've compared a 5.5s cycle with a 4.0s cycle - not exactly apples to apples.
    No, it's 5.5 to 5.5. If you assume the rage is constant, and that you're using Execute optimally, you're rage starved for one GCD using Execute.

    25% haste is equivalent to 3203 haste rating that is up constantly for 20% of the fight, for TWO talent points - it seems great to me.
    White damage is small portion of your DPS, so getting a 25% buff to that isn't very wonderful. The 25% bonus rage may be useful, depending on how you dump it (whether via HS, or by giving yourself more leeway for Execute use). I haven't done the math on it, and neither have you, so I think assuming it's awesome is jumping to a large conclusion when you consider that you're missing out on two talents that are useful for 100% of the fight rather than 20%. Any DPS gain Execute provides has to be judged in light of the full-fight damage gain from any other talents.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    your moms house
    Posts
    1,619
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    execute bypasses deadly calm, it costs rage regardless.
    this is gay.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts