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Thread: Warrior - Protection - Blood Craze

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by kopcap View Post
    A minor detail: BC is heaps better without a resto druid in the raid. Still bad though.
    Yeah it goes from "wtf did you spec that for?" to utter shite
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airowird View Post
    On an unrelated note: this thread was 7 months old before you replied to it.
    Incidentally, where is Kojiyama? I miss his contributions.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airowird View Post
    Actually, due to overhealing the Blood Craze hot will be significantly LESS valuable...

    On an unrelated note: this thread was 7 months old before you replied to it.
    With regard to your first point: I did say in my post that I thought DW was better, and other things that your second point make irrelevant.

    With regard to the second: my bad, I should have looked. A lock may be appropriate.

  4. #24
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    Actually, this point was bound to come up again, especially with the new threat changes, so hey, atleast we can refer to the old discussion in the same time.

    PS: While you agree, you also brought up some arguments in favor of BC, which I replied to. I simply want to inform others as well as to why the point you were trying to make does not really work in the current environment, so they can learn to take DW over BC as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
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  5. #25
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    So i think we can all agree that the tps need from dw is gone, but i still think that the dps aspect(at least in 10 mans) is important. I tried out blood craze tonight on h gate and found it to be pretty terrible its was something like 250k healing total over our best attempt of 6 mins in hitting enrage(keep in mind this is on gatekeeper where u get SOO much extra hp). I thought b/c of the increased hp the % based mechanic may be more useful but not really. At least in a 10 man environment until our dps get optimal gear i feel that the extra dps is much more important then the tiny hps. For tomorrow i will be trying 1 point into victory rush and i droped conc blow, vig and warbringer(or whatever the charge in combat one is called). Keeping imp rev b/c alot of times during the blade phase i get rage starved so will use during that.

    edit- some of these points were made just wanted to confirm them with an in-game experience.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by atcq View Post
    Incidentally, where is Kojiyama? I miss his contributions.
    I'm still lurking around... but I stopped playing WoW quite a few months ago due to a variety of reasons so find it a bit difficult to contribute too much in the realm of useful information anymore.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by pulled View Post
    So i think we can all agree that the tps need from dw is gone, but i still think that the dps aspect(at least in 10 mans) is important. I tried out blood craze tonight on h gate and found it to be pretty terrible its was something like 250k healing total over our best attempt of 6 mins in hitting enrage(keep in mind this is on gatekeeper where u get SOO much extra hp). I thought b/c of the increased hp the % based mechanic may be more useful but not really. At least in a 10 man environment until our dps get optimal gear i feel that the extra dps is much more important then the tiny hps. For tomorrow i will be trying 1 point into victory rush and i droped conc blow, vig and warbringer(or whatever the charge in combat one is called). Keeping imp rev b/c alot of times during the blade phase i get rage starved so will use during that.

    edit- some of these points were made just wanted to confirm them with an in-game experience.
    Even if BC never overhealed... It's only useful for soloing old dungeons and raids.

    10% chance to heal 3% of your health over 5 seconds.

    Lets assume 200k raid buffed tank. 3% is 6k. 6k over 5 seconds is 1,200 HP/s

    Boss swing timer is what, ~2.6 * 1.2 = 3.12 second swing timer (not counting certain abilities - this is just the standard boss melee).

    So... every 3 seconds (for simplicities sake) you have a 10% chance to start a 5 second heal at 1,200 health per second.

    It's something like a less than 20% chance of having a proc after 6 seconds, less than 30% chance after 9 (27%-ish?) - I don't remember the math - basically it's 3 talent points that may, at some point in the fight, randomly, provide a miniscule amount of health.

    It's a complete red herring. It seems like it's a heal, but since they nerfed it immediately after Cata dropped, it's value is about that of gray drops that don't have a vendor price.
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  8. #28
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    In Tier 12 content, there are plenty of other damage sources in boss fights (notably dots at shannox/ragnaros, aoe & adds at beth'tilac, adds at staghelm) which mean it will proc more. Plus there's a dual wielding boss in Baleroc. On the other hand, we are typically running at around 30% pure avoidance in t12 gear. I think you'll have a hard time calculating 'uptime' on blood craze, and given that it can often end up just being overheal it would probably be a wasted effort. Don't forget Field Dressing in the maths though if you do.

    However, since blood craze only procs on damage, that means that you must need at least some healing. Maybe another way to math this out would be to assume that only the first and maybe the second tick actually count. i.e. think of blood craze as saying 'you have a 10% chance to take (value of 1.5 ticks of the heal) less damage'. What probably makes a lot more sense than trying to theorise about it though, would be for some people to spec into it and share logs. Empirical evidence would help close this out.

    I would also point out that we are not necessarily talking about 3/3 DW vs 3/3 Blood Craze as a mutually exclusive thing. This build for example: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LG0MZbZIfGdRoozbu: with 1 point spare to put in DW or BC. Using that as an example, you can see that 2/3 blood craze is in competition with cruelty, thunderstruck, safeguard, impending victory - and that you only need to drop 1 point in deep wounds to get 3/3. Cruelty as a DPS talent is pretty much trash, as is thunderstruck outside AOE tanking (where it is decent). I've been experimenting with impending victory and have so far been fairly unimpressed. I find myself overhealing with it a lot, although that might be a practice issue - it does have the benefit of being an instant heal. Safeguard is hard to evaluate, but a neat ability when you can make use of it. On a regular fight, I net around 5-6% of my damage from maxed out deep wounds which is non-trivial, although the only fight where tank dps is super important (alysrazor) deep wounds doesn't work properly. While I don't see myself leaping to Blood Craze any time soon, I think if someone wanted to dump 2 points into it for 'just a bit of passive survival' then it wouldn't be completely daft.
    Last edited by swelt; 08-30-2011 at 03:54 AM.

  9. #29
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    First, I think that tps is a non-issue now so basically the question is, what does my raid need? quite a bit dps or very minor healing. I can only speak from a 10 man perspective but I feel that dps on domo, gate, razor, and lord r is more important then minor hps. Shan if your off tanking/kiting not getting blood craze would be terrible (if shannox isn't farm). Spider i cannot speak to yet with certainty but pretty sure dps Is pretty critical for p1 and p2 you need to get the guy down fast or stack kill raid and you. That leaves h Rag, i can see blood craze playing a big role in this 10 man b/c we likely will 2 heal it and as mentioned above you are always taking ticks of damage and its a very very long fight which will tax your healers. So in general in 10 man Heroic progression this ability isn't too appealing but could have a few niche's imo.
    "The greatest snowball isn't a snowball at all, it's fear"

  10. #30
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    Cruelty is not trash. It's a single target talent but its DPS value per point is greater than Sword and Board, Incite, or Heavy Repercussions

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Cruelty is not trash. It's a single target talent but its DPS value per point is greater than Sword and Board, Incite, or Heavy Repercussions
    Source?

    Because when I looked at it just the other day, it turned out to be trash (and note that the numbers I quoted for SnB in that thread are just for the devastate crit and don't include the value of the (rage free) extra shield slams.

  12. #32
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    Simcraft (though not this doesn't take into account the 2pc t12 bonus); I got these numbers by dropping two point from various talents.

  13. #33
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    Impending Victory is close to useless in a raid environment. While it is an instant heal, it is not available whenever you want it, but only after 4/5ths of the fight is over. If the fight has increased damage towards the end, it can help, but it still has all the weaknesses of instant activated healing -- namely, it's often wasted, or simply causes a healer to overheal. Still, it can stop a wipe if used at the exact right moment, but that mostly depends on luck.

    I have Blood Craze in my build, but I really should change it. I only still have it because I farm MC every week. Keep in mind that it's closer to 4%, though, than 3% -- due to Field Dressing. (Something like 3.8%, to be more exact, but I am not 100% on how Field Dressing works with self-heal abilities.)
    Last edited by Taelas; 09-01-2011 at 03:42 AM.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by swelt View Post
    I think if someone wanted to dump 2 points into it for 'just a bit of passive survival' then it wouldn't be completely daft.
    So the question should be: will a ~0.5% rdps (for 10m) increase from speecing into deep wounds outperform "just a bit of passive survival"?

    After the threat buff i happily specced into BC again to check out for the numbers in a 'real' environment, running with a 5/5/31 specc for the last two weeks straight in heroic 10m content.

    On Shannox i'm the kiter so it's my job to net get hit at all if possible, running around like a chicken for half the duration (4-5 minutes depending on healer setup) of the fight. Neither BC nor DW is of any great help here so we might just skip it.

    On Rhyolith i got healed for about 40k hitpoints (that's 20% of my total hitpoints) over five minutes.
    On Baleroc it's 140k healed hitpoints, but while running around with 2.0 million near the end of the fight these numbers feel pretty bad.. And i got a good measurepoint here, with DW i do on that tank&spank patchwerk-esque fight about 1k more dps (my gear hasn't changed in ages).
    On Alysrazor it's 90k healed on average, DW provideds only subpar dps results when it bugs around again (there was a hotfix but things got even worse afterwards). And don't forget that fight lasts 13+ minutes..
    On Beth'tilac it's 35k healed on average, and that's one of those fights with LOTS of damage flying around. I glyph into VR for it and get way higher rewards out of it.
    On Staghelm it's 110k on average over 9.5 minutes, that's still only half my full hitpoints bar.

    Now let's look on Ragnaros, we're still working on phase 3/4 and have yet to down him. Average healing done over 7 minutes of averaged fight length on ~ 100 trys in the last two weeks is about 100k. It's a fight where healing is pretty tightly tuned but dps matters as well. I for myself specced out of BC yesterday and picked up DW again and won't look back anytime soon.

    Either make BC a guaranteed hot (ticking for 1.6k every second would be neat) or have a damage reduction component included as mentioned before and i'll reconsider it but until then..

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taelas View Post
    Impending Victory is close to useless in a raid environment. While it is an instant heal, it is not available whenever you want it, but only after 4/5ths of the fight is over. If the fight has increased damage towards the end, it can help, but it still has all the weaknesses of instant activated healing -- namely, it's often wasted, or simply causes a healer to overheal. Still, it can stop a wipe if used at the exact right moment, but that mostly depends on luck.
    That was my finding... but I think there may be a technique to it. I think it goes something like this:
    - Use devastate exclusively until you proc IV.
    - Go back to a regular rotation
    - When you next take a big hit (within the next 20s) use your victory rush

    That may seem obvious, but the natural reflex (at least for me) was to mash victory rush as soon as it lit up. That doesn't work well, costing you dps and probably just overhealing.

    Coming back to Cruelty - in your high rage numbers Tengenstein, cruelty seems to only be better than thunderstruck, imp revenge and shield specialisation, or am I reading it wrong? Looks like 2 talent points for ~3% dps? I don't know what the 'low rage' scenario equates to, is that just less heroic strikes?

  16. #36
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    On domo and gate its concivable to get all the dps abilities and have room for 1 into impending victory. I like it b/c it feels like healers start to oom toward the end of gate and domo u can proc of the cats. Frankly there isnt much else to get cuz u dont need to charge conc blow or vig. On domo if your strat involves you usen rally cry you could even move outa that also. now glyphed its 25 sec window and a 7.5 percent heal with a 6 percent healing spec buff. I like it but its not a critical thing.
    "The greatest snowball isn't a snowball at all, it's fear"

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