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Thread: Warrior - Protection - Blood Craze

  1. #1
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    Warrior - Protection - Blood Craze

    Hello!

    I'm a long time lurker and even longer time tank who has recently returned from about a year and change game vacation. I tanked a lot through BC and WOTLK (was a rogue in vanilla, boy I loved vaelastrasz!). Having returned to a totally different game, I've been doing my fair share of reading trying to figure out what's going on.

    I'm not raiding yet, but I'm planning to start soon and i'm wondering about Blood Craze. I like to dual spec prot/prot. One for 5 man/AOE stuff, one for boss tanking (I've always been an MT in all of my raiding history). My question is mostly related to an optimal boss spec; does anyone know what the up time looks like for a standard raid boss encounter? At a 10% chance proc on hit (maybe not on blocks according to the old thread below?) and a heal for only 3% of HP, this talent seems really pitiful to me especially considering the slow swing speed bosses usually have (at least the ones I remember tanking!). Despite this, I still see the vast majority of protection specs taking the talent, do they know something I don't?

    I'm looking for updated info compared to the thread below regarding this talent, maybe a couple raid parses or something. I'm not having threat issues (never have) but I don't see how Blood Craze is more useful than some of the more damage/threat based talents available in a spec like:
    http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LG0cZ0bZIcGzRRRzbu

    Here's the old pre-cata thread I found:
    http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...ht=blood+craze

    Do you fine folks have any opinion on the matter? Does anyone have any recent raid meters (the name of the raid meter sites escapes me... ugh it's been too long) showing the talent in use?

    I appreciate your time!

    Heinz

  2. #2
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    World of Logs has most of the parses from the top guilds I can think of... but in terms of threat/damage I don't see any talent as being more useful than blood craze. It's not a ton of healing, but it is better than nothing.
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  3. #3
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    Yeah it is pretty weak, but so is deep wounds, and as a tank your goal is survival. So it simply becomes a matter of "a little survivial is better than a alittle extra dps/threat."

  4. #4
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    Blood craze and mending should give you 2000hps passively which is always welcome. On a lot of boss fights the 10% chance to regen 8000hp every time you take any damage(dots/constant raid damage/etc) is very welcome.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by gacktt View Post
    Blood craze and mending should give you 2000hps passively which is always welcome.
    1.000 hps on almost every bossfight (except slow hitters like Chimaeron or Atramedes thanks to air phase) and including at least one enraged regeneration. Even while forcing Blood Craze to procc nonstop (tanking magmaws parasites or adds on maloriak/al'akir/nefarian) it won't raise much higher.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by klausi View Post
    1.000 hps on almost every bossfight (except slow hitters like Chimaeron or Atramedes thanks to air phase) and including at least one enraged regeneration. Even while forcing Blood Craze to procc nonstop (tanking magmaws parasites or adds on maloriak/al'akir/nefarian) it won't raise much higher.
    Not sure where this 2k came from - even 1000 is high.

    Anshal: 270 HPS
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/pd074...#tab-healspell

    Nef from the same logs: 400
    470 on halfus the week before.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanzer View Post
    Yeah it is pretty weak, but so is deep wounds, and as a tank your goal is survival. So it simply becomes a matter of "a little survivial is better than a alittle extra dps/threat."
    That's not strictly true. Deep Wounds is, point for point, pretty much the highest non-critical (e.g. ignoring SnB/Devastate/etc.) threat talent available by a rather large margin and quite a decently large-sized increase in TPS/DPS.
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  8. #8
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    First of all - I havevn't tried it out on my warrior yet. This topic actually made me think about how much that talent is actually worth. Used to think the every lil' bit helps, but the calculations I just did might actually prove that the 3[!] points we spend in it are better used elsewhere. [And tbh, utility wise, I do have places to put them in case it proves they're not efficient in bloodcraze].

    Anyhow, since I didn't have an updated wol, I took this info:

    Armory of the warrior I used to check it on : http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...katsuro/simple
    He's a warrior tank of Dojo, a failry decent guild on my server. I'd say they're a bit behind on gear comparing to myself, but he's fairly close.
    The log I based my calcualtions on is this: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k.../?s=862&e=1227 , a 2 day old fight vs. omnitron defence system. [That's a fight with a standart boss swing timer, where the tank takes consistent hits druing the whole fight. I do not know if the warrior tanked the first 30 seconds of the fight, but that's really makes little to almost no diffrance].

    Anyhow, the rough math:
    Fight druation: 6:04. Let's round that up to a nice amount of 360 seconds. Blood Crazed ticked 54 times, healing 63,822. Let's round that up to a nice 64,000. That turns to be 177 HPS. Give or take a few roundings and giving him the benefit of the doubt, I'm willing to say it can heal up to 200 HPS.
    Now, as much as I'm in favour of tank self healing to the maximum [there was a time I actually argued FOR blood craze, sort of blindly tbh], I really don't think that at ANY point a heal that I have no control over and only heals me roughly 1,5k~ with a total of 200 HPS is worth 3 talent points. If you'd argue there's no better place for them, I'd agree, but I'd prefer getting some AoE talents or even safegaurd over a 200 HPS heal.

    You can argue it's also gear dependable, since the more HP the warrior would have, the more the heal would do. Even assuming a tank has 200k hp [which I haven't came across yet, but a hc geared tank might have that much, I'm hitting 180k buffed] that's a 6k heal streched over 5 seconds.

    If you add the fact that by some people's say [I haven't checked that, so I'm assuming it might be wrong, but that's just another fact in favor of dropping it] that blocked hits do not proc blood craze and a warrior's aim is to increase his block chance as high as possible, you basicly have a talent that only goes down in it's efficiency.

    I'm not at all a 'pro-theory-crafter', but after the small check I did, I started to think where else I'm putting my 3 talent points...

  9. #9
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    Given that I did some numbers the other day in regard to Impending Victory vs. DPS talents for fight duration vs. healer HPS and similar things, Impending Victory was just able to hold out against the DPS talents. However, the HPS of Impending Victory is much higher than Blood Craze, so it's hard to see Blood Craze winning at all.

    It is almost certainly going to save you more health to get DPS talents that make the fight shorter than the healing from Blood Craze.

    Like all things, this is situational. Maybe there is a fight where it helps you win. Otherwise, it's not very good--which is unfortunate, because it used to be quite good before the PvP self-healing nerfs late in beta.
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  10. #10
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    I was thinking of picking up blood craze for halfus hc, we're going to do it for the first time later this week and with all the whelps hitting me it might be viable. For any other fight its seems truly awefull.
    Anyone got experience using blood craze for halfus?

  11. #11
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    Great discussion guys. I really appreciate the numbers; I'm not familiar enough with the new raid encounters to identify tank and spankish bosses to really figure it out for myself! I suspected the ~200HPS when I made the thread and I'm not surprised at all to see it.

    I think I'll be dropping it from my boss spec and taking more damage/threat based spec like the one I linked in my OP.

  12. #12
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    Even cutting off 1 second from a 5 minute fight is likely to equal or exceed the damage prevented by a 200 HPS heal, especially in 10-mans where the absolute value of most threat talents is greater due to the lower raid DPS even though incoming damage on tanks is fairly similar to 25-man raids.
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  13. #13
    This is interesting, and I will have to look into it more in-depth myself.

    I will state that healers running out of mana is a much larger problem than threat. Some will say that it is more help to healers to do more damage, some will say it is more help to healers to have more self-healing. Either way, threat does not seem to be an issue at all, currently.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    That's not strictly true. Deep Wounds is, point for point, pretty much the highest non-critical (e.g. ignoring SnB/Devastate/etc.) threat talent available by a rather large margin and quite a decently large-sized increase in TPS/DPS.
    I never argued that it was the highest point for point non-critical threat/dps talent available, but thats not saying much. Its like getting an extra nickel, worth more than a penny, sure, but its still just five cents. To act like its going to sway the time it takes to kill any boss dramatically enough to save you more health is just silly.

    Just looking back at a Chimaeron parse from when I was running deep wounds, it did a total of 76,000 damage, which is really just a drop in the bucket, maybe two drops. Granted on a fight like chimmy where you can get obliterated in a single hit blood craze isn't going to really do much for you, but that doesn't make it so for every other encounter. I honestly never saw a static DPS increase attempt by attempt with having deep wounds. Nefarian for example, when I specced out of it I was still doing more DPS on some attempts than I was the previous night, meaning the damage increase from it is so little, just a lucky string of crits one fight can completely make up for not even having it in any given attempt from a previous one.

    As for threat, it doesn't really matter as threat isn't even close to being an issue, with or without it.

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    The point is simply that the heal is so small that simply shortening the fight by 1 to 2 seconds has the same mitigating effect on damage taken as the entire fight worth of 200 HPS from Blood Craze. It doesn't have to be dramatic. 200 HPS is not much, especially when heroic bosses pump out upwards of 20k DPS on tanks.

    Unless that heal is magically keeping you from dying from something specific--which is quite unlikely for something so unreliable and small--it's kinda hard to argue that it serves all that much purpose in general.

    I mean, when you're starting to say that 200 HPS is worth 1200 DPS... why not ask Moonkin or Elemental Shaman to toss random heals on the MT when he's low? Or Feral Druids to put Rejuv and Lifebloom on the MT between dot refreshes? Would be a similar DPS loss and probably a greater HPS gain--but would it save the tank? Probably not...which is why it generally isn't done unless it's a specific situation.

    It was one thing when it was literally 3 times stronger on beta, but post-nerf it seems far too small to really make any real impact--especially for the talent point cost.
    Last edited by Kojiyama; 01-28-2011 at 04:09 PM.
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  16. #16
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    My initial post wasn't that one was so much better than the other, but rather they are both pretty equally weak, and as a tank the choice for a little extra survival usually beats the little extra DPS. There are the exceptions, such as Chimaeron, where that little extra survival doesn't matter for anything, but for most encounters, its the other way around.

  17. #17
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    Honestly the only time I find picking up blood craze as an option is when specing in to piercing howl for kiting purposes, and it actually pays off better than battle trance simply because from a kiting perspective you're not doing much other than rend+tclap while spamming piercing how to keep the mobs at range as much as possible.

    Other than that I would go in to deep wounds for the DPS/TPS increase as stated above.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    The point is simply that the heal is so small that simply shortening the fight by 1 to 2 seconds has the same mitigating effect on damage taken as the entire fight worth of 200 HPS from Blood Craze. It doesn't have to be dramatic. 200 HPS is not much, especially when heroic bosses pump out upwards of 20k DPS on tanks.

    Unless that heal is magically keeping you from dying from something specific--which is quite unlikely for something so unreliable and small--it's kinda hard to argue that it serves all that much purpose in general.

    I mean, when you're starting to say that 200 HPS is worth 1200 DPS... why not ask Moonkin or Elemental Shaman to toss random heals on the MT when he's low? Or Feral Druids to put Rejuv and Lifebloom on the MT between dot refreshes? Would be a similar DPS loss and probably a greater HPS gain--but would it save the tank? Probably not...which is why it generally isn't done unless it's a specific situation.

    It was one thing when it was literally 3 times stronger on beta, but post-nerf it seems far too small to really make any real impact--especially for the talent point cost.
    Come on man, you're stretching it pretty thin here. Sure, reducing your time-to-kill also reduces the total damage you take, assuming you'll kill the boss either way. And yes, it's technically correct (though highly misleading) english to label the above effect "mitigation." But your total damage taken on a successful attempt is absolutely not a complete metric of your chance to survive the encounter, and it's just not true to say 2 seconds less combat is equivalent to a constant heal for as much as you take in 2 seconds of combat. All other things equal, the heal is demonstrably better in every case where time remaining is > 2 seconds.

    I actually agree that Deep Wounds is probably a more valuable choice than Blood Craze. Threat is useful and important. But it's not mitigation, and Blood Craze offers more surviveability than Deep Wounds. Even if Deep Wounds damage is what pushes us over the top against the enrage and results in me taking eleventy billion less damage plus not wiping, that is still not mitigation, and Blood Craze still would have been more personal surviveability. The fact that in this case Blood Craze leads to outcomes which are clearly worse. is ultimately a seperate issue.

    I know your point is you that should choose the better talent, and I know being more capable in your role results in dying less. I don't know why that requires insisting your oranges are better apples than my apples are, but the model you're using to compare is bogus.

  19. #19
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    Actually, due to overhealing the Blood Craze hot will be significantly LESS valuable than the 200 HPS mentioned (not to mention dependant on RNGesus).
    If you do a bit of statistical math on the HoT, you find out the chance for Blood Craze to actually save you during a spike is somewhere along the 0.5-1% range (and I'm being optimistic here), because it simply doesn't heal enough. Also, your argument that not having a DPS talent over Blood Craze is not important when discussing it's effect is a falacy, because as long as talent points are limited, Blood Craze effectively costs DPS. This is specificly true on bosses with adds or burst-like phases, where extra DPS can save you a LOT more healing.

    On an unrelated note: this thread was 7 months old before you replied to it.
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  20. #20
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    A minor detail: BC is heaps better without a resto druid in the raid. Still bad though.

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