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Thread: My Healers: "You're the hardest of our tanks to heal."; Me: "I've no idea why."

  1. #1
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    My Healers: "You're the hardest of our tanks to heal."; Me: "I've no idea why."

    The long and the short of it is in the title. I'm getting feedback from my healers over the past couple raiding cycles that I'm the hardest of our 4 primary tanks (one of each class) to heal, and I simply can't figure out why. I can look at WoL and see that in Baradin Hold (the only fight where I can see anything remotely close to an apples-to-apples comparison), I'm taking at least 10-15% less damage than both our Druid and DK tanks, on Heroic Halfus attempts, I'm the first to go down exactly as often as the other three tanks (while tanking both the whelps and a drake), our gear levels are similar, but still this issue persists. Here's my armory:

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...aedix/advanced

    The fact is, we're gearing up for heroics, and I don't want to be anything close to a weak link. Our DPS isn't quite there it seems, but when it is, I don't want to be the one holding us back. That said, I have no idea whether this is inherently a gear issue (it seems my mastery may be a bit low simply because of the specific drops I've gotten), whether it's an L2P issue (do I need to cycle cooldowns beyond simply DP - I tend to save the big ones for when they're truly needed), or whether it's some sort of strange cognitive bias issue. Here are the other tanks, for reference:

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...onkey/advanced

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../eyes/advanced

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...amund/advanced

    Any assistance in solving this mystery is greatly appreciated.
    Last edited by Raedix; 01-26-2011 at 08:06 AM. Reason: Grammar

  2. #2
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    Well my main is a warrior tank not a paladin, but I also have a paladin alt. As far as I can see you do your reforging right and try to balance your stats right. However I would rethink your gemming. You probably don't need so much stamina. It does not make you better healable. More blocks would help you to be more healable. So maybe you want to switch over to mastery gems instead of stamina gems. Your health would drop by probably less than 8k HP. Thats a small thing since you would get some more percentages of block. (Don't know the conversion number for paladins out of my head, for warriors it would be something around 4-6%) Your warrior tank did this, too. If the warrior has enough health to survive, you should be fine by switching over to mastery, too.

    Beside of this I cannot see a big fault gearing wise. And I don't know enough about paladins to find a fault in your talents. All that I know which are importent are included in your build.

    What I can ask you is, if you are using your selfheals? Most good paladins I know switch over to using their Holy Power for selfheals after they have assured the threat. Anothe thing that is important is to use your CDs meaningfull. Without some logs I cannot tell if you are doing it right, or wrong.

  3. #3
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    Hmm - thanks for the input. I do worry about losing too much stamina, though. I was MTing our attempts on Heroic Maloriak last night and it seems that the extra stamina really helped during the Dark phase (the only phase we saw, since our AOE was weak, but that's not important right now). Here are the logs, and it seems that I'm doing a decent amount of WoG self-healing: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-gz...pes&boss=41378 - because of the mechanics of the fight, I switch to Seal of Insight when the DPS leaves Maloriak, but I don't tend to do that in general. Maybe that's the issue? Do other raiding Paladins tend to go Insight after the first 30 seconds? Maybe you don't know the answer to that, Katzazi, but maybe someone else reading will.

    Anothe thing that is important is to use your CDs meaningfull.


    See, this is what I say, which is why I don't tend to cycle them as much as some others do. I'd rather have AD ready and waiting (even if it could have been used before) for when a healer decides to die to something on the ground, or for when a tree needs to go battle rez. If it's really hurting healer mana usage, I can switch things up, but using a CD during a time when the healers should be able to heal when there's a very real possibility that in 15 seconds, I'll need it for something that the healers can't heal, is counter-intuitive to everything I've known tanking in this game for five years.

  4. #4
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    Saving cooldowns indefinitely is a bad idea. To use Heroic Halfus as an example, if you're tanking two things at once (especially if one is the boss) you need to chain cooldowns.

    If you know there is a damage spike incoming, feel free to save them for that, but don't just say "well I'll save them in case a healer dies".

  5. #5
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    Reminds me on some of our guild tries on Magmaw. We had some problems to kill him with that group, because many were undergeard or stuff. I've seen the same thing happening to an uber paladin tank who also plays in an uber guild on another server or something, who was called when we were short on a tank. As I'm a warrior for most trys I have to throw my own party with the adds and the paladins one-tank the boss. They allways die when they are in the mouth and the melee are a little bit slow to chain the boss up. They die because they refuse to use a CD while or even before they are in the mouth because guids say that you should use a CD to survive the debuff afterwards.

    Well, I'm also running with another group that has no problem to kill Magmaw. It's also a paladin doing the one-tank stuff. But know what? He actually uses his CDs to survive or calls out to get one from the healers. He does not save them for a time that may be even worse and dies doing so.

  6. #6
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    You shouldn't be harder to heal than the warrior just because you have word of glory (20k every 3 hp) and seal of insight (1500+ heal/swing, greatly increases with vengeance up to 4500/swing).

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sebadoh View Post
    Saving cooldowns indefinitely is a bad idea. To use Heroic Halfus as an example, if you're tanking two things at once (especially if one is the boss) you need to chain cooldowns.

    If you know there is a damage spike incoming, feel free to save them for that, but don't just say "well I'll save them in case a healer dies".
    I agree with this advice. Unless you know that there is going to big spike damage coming that you will need to save your GoAK for, keep those CDs on CD.

    I would be a little more tentative, however, about swapping over to straight mastery gems (you could swap the +44 stam on your gloves out for the +50 mastery one, but that's negligible). Warriors often gem blue: mastery/stam; yellow: mastery; and red: parry/mastery, as the maths behind their class support that strategy. However, you are following what seems to be the accepted optimal strategy by the thinkers over at Maintankadin. There are a couple threads over there debating the relative value of gemming straight mastery vs. balanced mastery/stam that you might want to read up on, if you feel that your survivability continues to be an issue.

  8. #8
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    Re: My Healers: "You're the hardest of our tanks to heal."; Me: "I've no idea why."

    I'm not running raids yet cuz I'm waiting for my guildies to get as geared as I am (and I still need heroic trinkets/relic myself), so take this for what it's worth. That being said, here's what I humbly suggest.

    You have nice gear but yours is a little better than mine and I have slightly higher block than you. Gem/enchant for mastery for sure and ignore socket bonuses if they're weak (i.e +10 Dodge). Move some of your parry into dodge. Splurge for that BoE epic shield the blacksmiths make or get your guild to help get it crafted.

    I have SoI up all the time. I heal myself instead of SotR unless incoming damage is weak, and I even heal the rest of the party when it's feasable (healers love this). Keeping threat is easier healing with WoG than the extra DPS from another seal imho.

    Also, if the group needs you to do extra DPS then they might be undergeared or not playing right.

    All I know is the way I do it, my healers love me. I am the prefered tank in my guild, and I believe it is because of all the healing I do. Again, I haven't done a raid yet. However, we blow through heroics with zero wipes unless someone stands in the fire or makes a similar mistake (which is super rare at this point).

  9. #9
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    Thanks all, and I'd still like to hear some advice (especially since it might help others who are having similar problems), but I changed some things up and have some additional feedback.

    Saving cooldowns indefinitely is a bad idea. To use Heroic Halfus as an example, if you're tanking two things at once (especially if one is the boss) you need to chain cooldowns.
    I agree, and this is how I use cooldowns, more or less. People were trying to suggest I simply rotate cooldowns during normal damage periods, but that sort of thing makes no sense to me. Yeah, when we're starting out Heroic Halfus, I'm going to use cooldowns until the damage output dies down. Yeah, when Nef lands in phase 1, I'm going to pop a cooldown until I can pull him away from his no good whore of a sister. But, it seems to me that while cycling cooldowns during "normal" damage periods may decrease overall damage taken, it also increases variance of damage taken, can lull healers into a false sense of security, and get me pounded when the damage ramps back up as the healers started to pay attention to the raid. I am of the philosophy that cooldowns should be used to: 1. survive, and 2. smooth damage, not as a source of mitigation. Shrug.

    They allways die when they are in the mouth and the melee are a little bit slow to chain the boss up. They die because they refuse to use a CD while or even before they are in the mouth because guids say that you should use a CD to survive the debuff afterwards.
    See, this was the confusing part about this whole issue. It wasn't that I was dying any more than the other tanks, because of a failure to respect game mechanics like you're describing - it was simply a "he's harder to heal" comment. Does that really matter if it's not impacting my survivability? Maybe not, in a perfect world, but if the healer needs to concentrate more and because of that is unable to dedicate as much effort to concentrating on some other important raid mechanic, then we have a problem.

    You shouldn't be harder to heal than the warrior just because you have word of glory (20k every 3 hp) and seal of insight (1500+ heal/swing, greatly increases with vengeance up to 4500/swing).
    And, in addition to stacking a bit more mastery, that's what I switched to last night. Well, I've always used WoG, at least to some degree, but I've been tanking with SoT exclusively. Switching over to SoI last night was a double-edged sword. It was very effective for survivability, the healers told me that healing me on P3 Nef was an absolute breeze... but threat took a huge nosedive. I was still able to stay ahead of DPSers relatively effectively, but it was not nearly as effortless as before - it took a little bit of careful Salv usage to avoid Omen warnings from popping up at times. It seems that tanking with Insight is generally a good thing, but I should be weaving ShOR in more often with my WoGs.

    Keeping threat is easier healing with WoG than the extra DPS from another seal imho...

    All I know is the way I do it, my healers love me. I am the prefered tank in my guild, and I believe it is because of all the healing I do. Again, I haven't done a raid yet. However, we blow through heroics with zero wipes unless someone stands in the fire or makes a similar mistake
    So from my experience, I can't exactly agree with this. Maybe on a completely single target fight, WoG threat is good enough, but with fights with adds like Nef, the split-threat from healing diminishes effectiveness greatly. And while it was still fine during the raid, when I ran a heroic after the raid was over. Oh, and by the way, I have a bit of advice for you, too...

    Splurge for that BoE epic shield the blacksmiths make or get your guild to help get it crafted.
    Be careful in assuming that Purple automatically equals Good. If my issue was threat, that shield might be worth the upgrade, but it loses a good amount of avoidance/combat table coverage in exchange for hit. Now, if I could find a Blockade's on the AH, that would be a different matter entirely...

  10. #10
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    Re: My Healers: "You're the hardest of our tanks to heal."; Me: "I've no idea why."

    Like I said, I can't comment on the raid fights, you know better than me.

    I recommend the shield not because purple=better but because it has quite a bit more mastery on it than iron maiden. Since your dodge/parry are where they should be, just reforge the hit into dodge and it won't be a big loss in avoidance. The extra mastery is worth it.

  11. #11
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    Regarding threat:

    Staying ahead of your DPS is enough. If you had to use salvation and/or they were creeping up on you, that's fine. It doesn't matter how much you're ahead, as long as you're ahead. If they get too close you can just twist back and/or throw a ShotR or two.

    Regarding cooldowns:

    Use Divine Protection/trinkets pretty much on CD, unless you know you need it in the near futurue. I like to be a bit more conservative with the other 3, but it's always better to use them and not get the most out of them compared to not using them at all. Keep in mind blowing AD/GoAK when the raid is taking extra damage is very helpful to the healers, as they won't have to worry as much about you. Finding times to use DG should be pretty easy, on most boss fights there are certain times it is pretty obvious using it is the best choice.

  12. #12
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    Whats your healer setup out of curiosity and who usually gets the beacons?

    And just looking at the armory, your itemization could be a little better, ie its not that hard to replace some of those blues with more avoidance oriented items.

    Also I was told by our healers that Mirror of Broken Images makes a big difference on some fights.
    Last edited by kopcap; 01-28-2011 at 03:26 AM.

  13. #13
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    Re: My Healers: "You're the hardest of our tanks to heal."; Me: "I've no idea why."

    What ever happened to DPS having the job of controlling their threat? Isn't their job easy enough as it is? Kill stuff, CC if needed, and don't stand in the fire. If you staying alive means they have to occasionally throttle back, then so what? Their recount won't be as high? As I saw in another thread, someone said more omen less recount. During a burn, yeah, you have to salv and such, ok, but unless there is a wipe coming due to an enrage timer, it's not a DPS race. At least, that's how it used to be...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linkie View Post
    Regarding threat:

    Staying ahead of your DPS is enough. If you had to use salvation and/or they were creeping up on you, that's fine. It doesn't matter how much you're ahead, as long as you're ahead. If they get too close you can just twist back and/or throw a ShotR or two.
    True. The key to remember here though is you will need *some* cushion during the fight so DPS can use CDs. So as long as you can stay ahead of DPS as they use CDs (and they should wait to use them until you have established a lead), you're good.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  15. #15
    Everything looks in order as far as gemming and all, if you are taking more dmg than the other tanks then there is a problem somewhere in there with either not keeping HS up, or turning your back to the boss. Myself and our warrior tank take far less dmg than both the feral and DK. As far as threat goes while using SoI, make sure you are pulling with AW and DP to ensure you get off 2 ShoR during the AW. Other than that, threat should not be much of an issue, and if it is you can seal flip throughout the fight to get a threat boost. Ensure that you are popping AW on CD and DP to build more of a threat lead as well. On heroic content and add kiting for nef I solely use SoI and have a spec specific for those two encounters with their own sets of glyphs.

    If threat does become an issue then ensure your rogues are ToTing you and hunters MDing to keep the mobs glued to you, some guilds or RL's may give you friction and if thats the case then you may want to look for a new home. For example, a few weeks back I ran all the farm content while being expertise and hit capped from reforging and post a top 10 parse in every fight I was not tanking adds, so when I said I needed it on Halfus because I was tanking our first burn target there was no issues to get them for the first 30 seconds.
    www.blessthemartyrguild.com

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