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Thread: Prot Paladin Avoidance numbers.

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by desolatedays View Post
    @sifuedition Mostly correct aside from the fact that due to the conversion rate, the 2nd 100 dodge rating would equal about 0.94 and the 3rd would thus equal around 0.84. Current dodge conversion rate is 171.719 and 1 / 171.719 ~ 0.0566.
    Wow! For a totaly made up example, I can't believe I was so close, lol.

  2. #22
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    MotW does provide a small agi buff, but nothing to get excited about, reading alot on this dodge/ parry thing and the general consences is to stack dodge over parry/hit/exp.

    This just levels out the ratings a litttle and reduces diminishing returns to its minimum potential, as for why blizz hates buffing dodge? i dont really know.

    I have noticed, personal experience, that forsaking all other stats for avoidance is a bad move, threat is ridiculasly low without 16/16 exp (26/26) glyphed. and at least 6-8% hit,

    Finding the balance between avoidance and threat seems to be the key factor, and i feel alot more comfortable tanking now, using this page as a guide, and hitting the avoidance capp is still a goal, atm however healers will need to heal me at least 22% of the time until i get the gear needed to meet both avoidance and threat caps.

    Happy to report, very succesful tanking now, and really comfortable threat, I think this paladin is ready for the big leagues

    Just wanted to pop in and say thank you all very much for you comments and support, I'll be recommend this page, and this site to any paladins who want to tank for the first time.

    Thanks alot.

  3. #23
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    Prot Paladin Avoidance numbers.

    Glad to hear things are going so well for you.

    Just a note however, if you need that much hit/exp to hold threat, you are still doing something wrong...or I should say not optimally.

    I currently have about 2% hit and something like 5 expertise (plus 10 from the glyph) and I never lose threat unless it's the first ten seconds and something missed while dps are blowing CDs but that's what taunt is for.
    "he doens't need healing, he doesn't need healing, he doesn't nee-WHAOSHIT!wtf was that man!". Please stop leaning on TDR. -Teng

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eirohir View Post
    MotW does provide a small agi buff, but nothing to get excited about, reading alot on this dodge/ parry thing and the general consences is to stack dodge over parry/hit/exp.

    This just levels out the ratings a litttle and reduces diminishing returns to its minimum potential, as for why blizz hates buffing dodge? i dont really know.

    I have noticed, personal experience, that forsaking all other stats for avoidance is a bad move, threat is ridiculasly low without 16/16 exp (26/26) glyphed. and at least 6-8% hit,

    Finding the balance between avoidance and threat seems to be the key factor, and i feel alot more comfortable tanking now, using this page as a guide, and hitting the avoidance capp is still a goal, atm however healers will need to heal me at least 22% of the time until i get the gear needed to meet both avoidance and threat caps.

    Happy to report, very succesful tanking now, and really comfortable threat, I think this paladin is ready for the big leagues

    Just wanted to pop in and say thank you all very much for you comments and support, I'll be recommend this page, and this site to any paladins who want to tank for the first time.

    Thanks alot.
    I still don't understand why dodge>parry when the diminishing returns are the same and as was shown, not much difference in buffs... They nerfed the pally returns from agility when cata first dropped, so I don't think Pallys get any more dodge/agi than warriors now (the closest comparison as they're both shield wearers).

    And I'm going to have to agree with sifu... Threat is fine unless you're outgeared by your DPS after the first 10-20 seconds of the fight. If DPS opens up with CDs, they're going to pull off with no problems, but once vengence gets stacked, if you're using a good rotation, you'll be doubling up the DPS in threat on most fights by the end of the first minute.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  5. #25
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    Well im currently sitting on 80.11 avoidance, and 13/13 exp, with 6.11% hit, my threat now goes through the roof, 100k above any second, and i must say i prefere the added threat, tanking comfortably again and its a really joy i have to admit.

    I sure could lose some exp/hit, but thats where i was before, and 250k threat being around my max, where as now im in 500k range and no one could ever get agro, which is what i like as a tank, i guess.

    the extra 3% avoidance would be more optimal as you put it, but that 3% stacked into threat means i dont have to worry about threat tables or hand of salvation anymore, and focus on the task at hand, either kiting or MT on a boss, its always comfortable.

    If you think my rotation may be flawed, id welcome any tips you might want to share

    Currently:
    1:Avengers Shield (on the pull) for instant high(ish) threat.
    2:Hammer of the rightious (Cs - single target) added agro.
    3:Holy Wrath - more threat.
    4:AV or CS (Hotr)
    5:Consentration, more is better than less.
    6:Repeat, on first come first served basis.
    7:Judging every opertunity between main spells /casts.

    If there is a better / more efficitive way to gain alot of threat very quickly, id like to try it, many guides on the subject say stick to 3-9-3 with fillers, but honestly, not knowing when something is going to proc, except for your 3-9-3 abilitys is sorta stating the obvious.

    In my book, get threat fast, get lots of it, and its easier to hold, than to build from zero, cuz forcing me to taunt makes less threat than keeping the rotation steady and consistant.

    But as i already admitted, im new to tanking, and on paladins, it just seems easier with more threat and "slightly" less avoidance. as a balance thing.

    102.4 is not in my range to even worry about yet, but for the moment at least, im not taking huge damage and the healers dont need to run away from me anymore lol.

    Im really enjoying the gaming, and especially the tanking, so anything to critic would be met with a broad smile, and an open heart.
    Last edited by Eirohir; 02-14-2011 at 07:36 AM.

  6. #26
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    Someone popped in a macro for calculating your avoidance on the Prot Field Manual page... This isn't verified to be correct yet but it sure pops out a fat avoidance number for me =}

    /run local b,d,p=GetBlockChance(),GetDodgeChance(),GetParryCh ance()ChatFrame1:AddMessage(format( "Mitigation Cap(102.4): %.2f%% Avoidance: %.2f%%",b+d+p+5,d+p+5))

    We all know the thread
    http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t110338-...1_4_0_6_a/p12/

  7. #27
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    The "rotation" should be:

    1. CS/Hammer of the Righteous - these are interchangable based on single-target/multi-target
    2. X
    3. CS
    4. X
    5. CS
    6. You are now at three holy power (unless you missed on 1-3-5 in which case just get another on the next chance). Assess the situation. Need a heal? Word of Glory. Need threat on multiple targets? Inquisition. Need threat on single target? Shield of the Righteous.

    Then repeat. The X is whatever is off cd and most useful. Mana is 75% or below? Judgement. Multiple targets still building threat? Holy Wrath. Grand Crusader proc? Avengers Shield.

    Using this, threat is never an issue for me. Almost all my three holy power use is WoG on me or a party member. I almost never use Consecration either. If I am at an X in the rotation and everything is on cd and my mana is good, I'll drop it. Otherwise, I don't. I think it is easier for me to get away with this because after the first few GCD's, I check threat and it is usually fine so I start tab targeting all the mobs in the pull to share the love even better. If I start to have to fight for threat at all, I just pop Avenging Wrath and all is good. This rarely happens so it has always been available for me when I need it.

    Of course, the pull itself is "outside" the rotation. Like most, I will usually pull with an AS. If there is time, I may also judge a mob while they run to me. For single target, I like to pull with Exorcism, taunt in the cast latency and AS immediately. This packs a nice threat punch for the pull and one is almost guaranteed to hit avoiding that insta-loss to a dps who starts early.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katzazi View Post
    Strenght is converted to parry rating, agility is converted to dodge rating (again at the same conversion rate). You get more strength than agility, so you get more parry rating than dodge rating.
    Close, but one very clear mistake.

    Agility and Dodge Rating are converted to Dodge (dodge has both factors, other than the constants). Agility is never actually converted to Dodge Rating in the calculation.
    Last edited by Quinafoi; 02-16-2011 at 04:48 PM.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Contravene View Post
    Someone popped in a macro for calculating your avoidance on the Prot Field Manual page... This isn't verified to be correct yet but it sure pops out a fat avoidance number for me =}

    /run local b,d,p=GetBlockChance(),GetDodgeChance(),GetParryCh ance()ChatFrame1:AddMessage(format( "Mitigation Cap(102.4): %.2f%% Avoidance: %.2f%%",b+d+p+5,d+p+5))

    We all know the thread
    http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t110338-...1_4_0_6_a/p12/
    There is a rather long discussion with several macro variations over in this topic:
    http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...ble-quot-Macro
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  10. #30
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    Well you seem to be right. But Buffs give you more parry than dodge, anyway at least for the values we can attain at the moment. You just have so much more strength than agiligy. Anyway - you should balance your dodge and parry raitings while buffed. It's easy enough to do, especially since you already provide one of them. (An even better way is to do it with a character planer like chardef or something like rawr where you can actually see the different effects.)

  11. #31
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    While you will have more strength than agility, you get more % dodge from Kings + Horn of winter than you do % parry because strength only gives you 0.25 parry rating per strength while you can count about 60% of the agility as dodge rating as a paladin (it isn't dodge rating but that is about the equivalence). I have around 1% higher chance to parry than dodge when unbuffed, raidbuffed I only have 0.25% higher chance to parry than dodge.

  12. #32
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    So if im reading this right (unlikely)

    Keeping dodge / parry around 1% of each other i.e. 13.23 / 13.94 (27.17) respectively, will grant greater avoidance, than 13% / 15% (28.00) respectively.

    So on my stats listed above, i can take some parry away, add dodge, and have greater avoidance than it is now.
    and shove everything else into mastery / threat (Hit,exp,haste,crit) to build a solid respectable tank?

    while im here i might as well as now too, whats the highest threat generator barring str, (reforging to W/X/Y/Z) in threat gains?

    I know you guys dont get paid for this stuff, but its my first tank and i dont want to mess it up or indeed a raid, for silly mistakes.

    Heres what i've done so far, thanks to all the advice i've gotten, how am i doing?

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  13. #33
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    Prot Paladin Avoidance numbers.

    The avoidance on your character sheet can be added. More is more.

    13% parry + 20% dodge + 50% block = 83%
    13% parry + 14% dodge + 50% block = 77%

    Example 1 is more avoidance. However, to get dodge so high, you would have to pump an extreme amount of ratings I to dodge. Those points would yield a higher % of parry if you reforged them. Remember, the higher you go, the more ratings points you need to add 1% more of that stat. That is diminishing returns.

    Your best threat stat is expertise. Once expertise is at 26, hit gets closer as far as threat. Expetise hard caps at 52. Hit hard caps at 8%.

    Do not worry about hit or expertise yet. In later tiers, they may become important again, but for now, if you can't hold threat, those are NOT the problem. Vengence is helping tank threat too much to need those.
    "he doens't need healing, he doesn't need healing, he doesn't nee-WHAOSHIT!wtf was that man!". Please stop leaning on TDR. -Teng

  14. #34
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    expertise hard cap is 56 Still don't need to go for it though

  15. #35
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    ok all this info helped a lot but i have one question thats kinda off topic....whats a good amount of health to have to start heroics and how much do i want to have to start raiding.

  16. #36
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    as i understand it. the %s on the character sheet after after DR.
    the ratings ie points/% are different, but 1% of dodge is equal to the 1% parry ( -the mana return from sanctuary)
    but if you have more dodge, a piece with 100 parry RATING, is worth more that 100 dodge RATING.

    as to threat the best threat stat is getting your rotation down

    and the amount of health to have before starting heroics or raids ... is well enough to survive a lot depends on everything else, not just you.

  17. #37
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    I think I had 115-120k when I started 5man heroic tanking and about 140k when I started raid tanking.

  18. #38
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    awesome and acurate explination!

  19. #39
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    Looking for some advice on my numbers, and what i need to change.

    Here is a link to my armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...alefrae/simple

    I do not have access to raiding at the moment. Any help would be appreciated.

  20. #40
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    You are missing the enchant on the shoulders. You will need to quest through Deepholm to unlock it. You also have the wrong leg enchant (145 stamina and 55 dodge rating)

    You have some dps items which could be changed to tanking items (shoulders, ring).

    The boots from Dragonmaw reputation are better than the molten front boots, despite having a lower item level.

    Get the trinkets from tol'barad (Mirror of Broken Images) and molten front.

    Talents: I would take 1 point from Rule of Law and put it in divine guardian. I would also personally take the points out of Hallowed Ground and put them in Pursuit of Justice.

    Glyphs: Dazing Shield is useful for kiting stuff, otherwise it just makes mobs take longer to get to you, giving the dps more time to pull them off you before you have a chance to tank them. Lay on Hands (Major) is very useful, I would swap that for the Divine Plea Major)

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