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Thread: Prot Paladin Avoidance numbers.

  1. #1
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    Prot Paladin Avoidance numbers.

    I've been looking for detailed info on prot paladin avoidance numbers, as i find the topic really confusing.

    Some guides that i read say : 102.4 avoidance would cap off, but isnt that a little outdated ? or is it?

    Basicly before i blow my head off, i'd like to know, how much is enough, and how much is too much (before diminishing returns)

    If i had baseline numbers, reforging, gemming, and enchanting wouldnt be so bloody confusing to me.

    I'm sure ill get a few lol's but i really cant figure out where to start, and what my goals should be for each stat.

    To be clear, we're talking entry level raids in cata, nothing fancy like hardmode / hc's

    If I could bother someone long enough to answer a few (simple) questions, id be very grateful.

    Dodge : ??% <- 10-12% ish?
    Parry : ??% <- 10 -12% ish?
    Block : ??% <-45-50% ish?
    Mastery : ??% <- as much as i cant get?

    As i understand it, avoidance is the sum of all these percentages minus miss chance %

    or do i have it all backward?

    Would love some advise on this, any help would be well received.

  2. #2
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    your avoidance chance is your parry chance + dodge chance + 5% miss. So if you have 12% dodge and parry you have 29% total avoidance against a level 85 enemy.

    To work out the chance for an enemy to hit you instead of being avoided or blocked, you simply add your block chance to this number. Assuming our tank has 51% block, he will have an 80% chance to block, parry, miss or dodge and a level 85 enemy only has a 20% chance to hit him normally.

    When you are being attacked by a higher level enemy they can disregard some of your defensive stats. A level+1 enemy ignores 0.2% of each stat per level, so a total of 0.8% pdmb (parry + dodge + miss + block) per level difference. this means that you need a total of 100+2.4 = 102.4% pdmb to no longer take direct hits from a boss level (level+3) enemy. Do not try to reach this, you won't manage until you are in at least T12 gear.

    My unbuffed stats in mostly 359 gear are
    12.29% dodge
    13.39% parry
    51.59% block

    So if I am not buffed and fighting a boss (it has happened before :/ ) I have (102.4-(12.29+13.39+51.59+5))=20.13% chance for the boss to hit me with an unblocked swing.

    Does this help?

  3. #3
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    This is indeed a great insight into the avoidance stats, and i am grateful to you for taking the time to reply, i have but one more question, and its complicated (in my eyes )

    Regarding Diminishing Returns,

    I understand that attacking the same creature (gardless of level ) with eventually start diminishing returns.

    So my question is this. Q: When does DR start to become an issue, and how is it best countered, (Assume ) Rotation 363, single target MT.

    I realise my questions may sound (dumb) or words to that effect, but if im going to tank (which i really dont like atm, cuz of my lack of knowledge in the area) i will need some further info.

    Thanks for your reply, really solid and to the point info, very grateful
    Last edited by Eirohir; 01-24-2011 at 07:13 AM.

  4. #4
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    Ok diminishing returns don't work like that

    Back in the days of black temple and sunwell, certain classes (druids and rogues) could stack enough dodge rating and agility to avoid every single swing a boss made. Obviously this was not how the devs intended the tanking game to be played and they slapped a 20% dodge malus on players in Sunwell.

    In patch 3.0 they introduced a diminishing return (DR) on avoidance stats and avoidance gained from agility. This means that every new point of a stat had a diminished return on it, in layman's terms each new point of rating gave you slightly less avoidance than the previous point. towards the end of WotLK tanks began to get "too much" avoidance for the bosses, which basically meant that the bosses had to hit REALLY hard to endanger the tank as they avoided up to 3 hits in 4, leading up to Festergut swinging for values to wrong side of 40k and the Lich King(25hc) swinging for 50-55k on a tank with 60-65k max life.

    enough of the history lesson. Diminishing Returns (as far as I know) only affect the amount of avoidance percentage YOU gain from each new point of avoidance rating. Attacking a boss for a prolonged amount of time does not affect your hit chance (unless a piece of equipment breaks due to having 0 durability left, but that shouldn't really happen).

  5. #5
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    Re: Prot Paladin Avoidance numbers.

    I have a question.

    Which number do people report for avoidance? Do we use the number listed or the number in the tooltip? Cuz I have like 12% for the main number but 8% or so in the tooltip (says "after diminishing returns").

  6. #6
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    Fantastic !

    Just what i didnt know, im glad i came here for some answers, nost of the other sites are full of tollers, and people who take the thread of topic, i found all my answers here in about 2hrs, vs 100's of other site with less than average sucess, and as you can tell less than accurate info.

    just one last question

    Where do i send the cheque

    i got 20 bucks with your name on it

    Ty for the help, cheerios

    EDIT: :S just went to reforge my gear, to stack as much avoidance as possible, ilvl 349 ish, i now have to choose between -90 dodge / expertise and +90 mastery // parry.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Eirohir; 01-24-2011 at 07:48 AM.

  7. #7
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    how much is 20 dollars in euros?

  8. #8
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    20 U.S. dollars = 14.7383935 Euros

    but ill make it an even 15E

  9. #9
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    That changes every day.

    But to stay OT:
    @Dedic: It's the value shon on the character sheet. The other number is only the conversion form the ratinigs to the percentage. After that the game would apply the according deminishing returns and add the result to your base avoidance. That's your actual avoidance and the one you can see on your sheet.

  10. #10
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    EDIT: :S just went to reforge my gear, to stack as much avoidance as possible, ilvl 349 ish, i now have to choose between -90 dodge / expertise and +90 mastery // parry.
    - expertise
    + parry

  11. #11
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    Ok turns out im dumber than i look

    Having trouble with diminishing returns.

    Dodge- 12.85
    Parry- 14.85
    Block- 38.46
    miss- 05.00
    total
    71.16/ 31.24- unmissable.

    So here's the question, lol...

    Is each avoidance stat singlarly effected by DM, is stacking too much of one going to lower my total avoidance, OR is it all lumped together and 102.4 minus avoidance the way to go.

    or

    Do i simply stack dodge and parry to 15 each, and throw in tons of mastery?

    The reason i ask is cuz, when im reforging, i get options like dodge / parry to mastery .
    and i want to know if i must reforge one of the two, should it always be the higher stat? or does it make a difference?

    -55 parry / dodge to + 55 mastery. does the avoidance even change??

    Very confused.
    Last edited by Eirohir; 02-10-2011 at 02:12 AM. Reason: additional info.

  12. #12
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    Miss is a fixed value and will not see any diminisching returns.

    Block does not get any diminishing returns and should be maxed out as far as possible because of that. (Ok, there are other reasons, too, but it's one reason.)

    Dodge and Parry are getting the same diminishing returns for the same ratings. But they start at different percentages. But even with high diminishing returns, every added rating will give you some more percentage for the chosen value.

    However if you have 300 dodge rating and 3000 parry rating, 500 additional rating to dodge will give you a big boost to your dodge percentage while it will do much less if added to your parry percentage. So if you are speaking about reforging existing ratigns and not adding new ratings, you will get a bigger sum of all percentages, if you reforge the dodge/parry with the higher percentage towards mastery or the other one.

    You should always look at them buffed. With kings and battle shout/strength of earth totem/horn of winter, because they give additional strength and agility which also add some ratings.



    Tip: Use a character planner or (even better) rawr to see the effects of possible reforgings. You spend less gold by trying out different combinations "on paper" instead of doing them ingame.

  13. #13
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    It works something like this (made up numbers to demonstrate)

    Assuming 0 stats to start:
    +100 dodge rating (not %, the actual amount on a piece of gear) you get 1% dodge.
    +100 more dodge rating you get another 0.95% dodge (this 100 rating gave you less than the first 100 rating did - diminished) 1.95% dodge
    +100 more rating you get another 0.85% dodge (diminishing returns is getting steeper the more you add) 2.8% dodge

    Even though 100 rating gave you 1% dodge, 300 rating does not give 3% dodge - it gets diminished as you add more

    Mastery does not have diminishing returns and that is one of the primary reasons it is considered the best stat to stack. Stamina does not diminish either.

    Once you pass the 13% (roughly) mark for dodge or parry, the ratings - actual % starts taking a steeper diminished return. If you had 15% dodge and 10% parry that's 25% avoidance. Reforging some of your dodge to parry would likely end you up at 13% dodge and 13% parry for a total of 26%. This is because parry is not being diminished as much as the dodge was.

  14. #14
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    So if im reading this right (unlikely)

    Keeping dodge / parry around 1% of each other i.e. 13.23 / 13.94 (27.17) respectively, will grant greater avoidance, than 13% / 15% (28.00) respectively.

    So on my stats listed above, i can take some parry away, add dodge, and have greater avoidance than it is now.
    and shove everything else into mastery / threat (Hit,exp,haste,crit) to build a solid respectable tank?

    while im here i might as well as now too, whats the highest threat generator barring str, (reforging to W/X/Y/Z) in threat gains?

    I know you guys dont get paid for this stuff, but its my first tank and i dont want to mess it up or indeed a raid, for silly mistakes.

    Heres what i've done so far, thanks to all the advice i've gotten, how am i doing?

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...sreaper/simple
    Last edited by Eirohir; 02-11-2011 at 12:54 AM.

  15. #15
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    So, you are reading it just about correct.

    Lets say you have 2500 worth of rating points if you add all your dodge and parry on all your gear. If that is all in one stat, the diminishing returns we talked about earlier will greatly reduce the % you get from those rating points. The more balanced you keep it, the less points you lose overall to the diminishing effect. Balance based on those %'s. So don't go adding up all your rating and making sure the rating points are equal. Just do the balancing based on the dodge % and parry % on your character sheet.

    As to threat, expertise is your highest threat stat. Hit is next. Expertise to 26 would be the first threat stat to cap. Then expertise and hit are more equal until hit cap at 8% and parry cap at 52 expertise.

    You do NOT need threat stats now. If you must not miss an interrupt, you might work on hit cap for that fight and that fight alone. Vengence is ensuring that tanks have enough threat without having to get the threat stats. If you lose threat right now, it is not due to low hit/exp.

  16. #16
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    I read that it is optimal to keep parry about 1% more than dodge.

    To the OP: looking at your gear, you sometimes reforged to avoidance when you could have reforged to mastery. Mastery is better for both melee damage reduction and combat table coverage (i.e. making you unhittable).

  17. #17
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    @sifuedition Mostly correct aside from the fact that due to the conversion rate, the 2nd 100 dodge rating would equal about 0.94 and the 3rd would thus equal around 0.84. Current dodge conversion rate is 171.719 and 1 / 171.719 ~ 0.0566.
    @eirohir Yes 102.4% would be correct for an 85 fighting a level 88 raid boss. Considering raid bosses have 0.2% extra chance to hit per level difference for each part of avoidance, than (0.2% * 3) + (0.2 * 3) + (0.2 * 3) + (0.2 * 3) (which is 0.2% per level times 3 levels, for all 4 avoidance stats.) = 2.4%. So 100% + 2.4% = 102.4%, the unhittable minimum for raid bosses.
    Hope this cleared some things up for you guys! =]
    Last edited by desolatedays; 02-13-2011 at 10:19 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by theodisius View Post
    I read that it is optimal to keep parry about 1% more than dodge.
    I don't know if this is true for Pallys. If they have an ability like Hold the Line for Warriors, it would be true. Otherwise, if there's no ability that causes a 'nice effect' on parry versus on dodge, then they would be equal. And I don't see one looking through the talent calculator.

    For warriors it's ~2 or 3%. It varries according to the top theorycrafters (Koji has posted extensively on this in the past).
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  19. #19
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    It's because you get more Dodge from raid buffs than you get Parry.

  20. #20
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    How come? As far as I know there is no raid buff that gives you dodge (beside of dodge food, but there's also parry and mastery food available). Battle Shout / Earthstrength totem / Horn of Winter give you a strength and agility increase at the same amount. Since the conversion rate from strength/agility to ratings is equal those buffs don't favore dodge over parry or wise versa. Then there is kings/MotW. It adds more strength and agility and such parry and dodge, but the value depends on the strenght and agility you already have. You should have a lot more strength then agility on your gear. So kings will give you more strength than agility. Strenght is converted to parry rating, agility is converted to dodge rating (again at the same conversion rate). You get more strength than agility, so you get more parry rating than dodge rating.

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