Heroic Chimaeron

[Papapaint]

Can you confirm that he goes into phase 2 at 22%?

On 10man normal he waits until 20%.

This 2% discrepancy will be crucial in timing the p2 shortly after a feud starts.

I can confirm that it is dependant on server-side updates and therefore can occur between 22-20%, most frequently between 21.3 and 21.5%

[Daimon]

Correct me if I'm wrong but, doesn't break reduces the OUTGOING healing and not the incoming? wasn't this mechanic introduced so DK tanks don't faceroll the fight?

[klausi]

I can confirm that it is dependant on server-side updates and therefore can occur between 22-20%, most frequently between 21.3 and 21.5%

Phase 2 always starts at 20.0% for us now after the recent hotfix/patch.

@Daimon
Break only reduces outgoing heal, yes. But damage taken is increased as well so you really want to switch tanks for those feud phases without the robot up

[Kinch]

doesn't break reduces the OUTGOING healing and not the incoming?

That's correct.

[Zellviren]

Great; another T11 encounter providing a RL enrage due to the stupid impact of RNG. We're doing it on 10 man and finding that you need at least two Massacre casts between a Feud phase, else you run a very serious risk of losing one of your tanks (using a Frost death knight as a "tank") throughout it.

The solution?

Take a paladin.

Bring the Player, not the Class.

Yeah, right.

[Papapaint]

Great; another T11 encounter providing a RL enrage due to the stupid impact of RNG. We're doing it on 10 man and finding that you need at least two Massacre casts between a Feud phase, else you run a very serious risk of losing one of your tanks (using a Frost death knight as a "tank") throughout it.

I'm not sure I follow. Break stacks last 60 seconds. Even if he only casts one massacre between each fued, the stacks will still drop off whichever tank.

[Zellviren]

I'm not sure I follow. Break stacks last 60 seconds. Even if he only casts one massacre between each fued, the stacks will still drop off whichever tank.

Not quite.

We're using the same tank (Frost DK) for the main phase, while the Blood DK tanks the melee during every Feud; throw me in to take every Double Attack, and you get the basic set up. Now, assuming there are two Massacre casts between every Feud, the Break stacks fall off the Blood DK and he can tank the Feud phase as normal and I'll continue to take every Double Attack. If, however, there is only one Massacre, then either the Blood DK hopes for some dodges and/or parries while he still has Break stacked, or I tank the Feud phase and hope to hard cooldown both Double Attacks, because they will likely kill anyone with Break.

Then of course we move back into the normal phase, I have Break, and the first Double Attack that lands is enough to kill me. Or, we get lucky, and the Blood DK can take the Double Attacks (Break having fallen off) and we're both out of cooldowns for the final phase; arguably where they're needed most.

I loved this fight on normal. It's unique, well thought-out and nicely tuned. On heroic, without a specific set up or a bit of luck (we have no paladin and no Discipline priest, for example), it's finger-crossing time as soon as you get two Feuds in a row.

Hell, we even got three on a few occasions.

[Papapaint]

We're using the same tank (Frost DK) for the main phase, while the Blood DK tanks the melee during every Feud; throw me in to take every Double Attack, and you get the basic set up.
[/SIZE]

There's your problem.

This is how it should work. Let's call our DPS "tank" A, and our true tanks B and C.

The fight begins with A tanking. B is soaking double attacks.

Fued occurs, B tanks Chimaeron, pops a cooldown to survive the one double attack during Fued.

A begins tanking again after Fued, C is soaking double attacks.

Fued occurs, C tanks Chimaeron, pops a cooldown to survive the one double attack during Fued.

A resumes tanking after Fued. B's stacks of break have dropped by the time the next double attack goes out. Since the duration of Fued is 30 seconds, and the ICD on Massacre in general is 30 seconds, there's no way B will still have stacks of break unless you've made an error somewhere.

You don't have the same tank eating double attacks all fight.

[Scotteq]

In Heroic, we use a Retadin w/Fury on as the main tank: with the 10k HP buff/rule, he won't die even if he gets crit. The two regular tanks alternate eating doubles & Feud (burn CDs here). The one with no CDs left is on standby and simply maintains debuffs and tries to DPS as much as possible.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[Zellviren]

Fued occurs, B tanks Chimaeron, pops a cooldown to survive the one double attack during Fued.

We're getting two double attacks every Feud, not one.

That means with Break up, even using cooldowns is a risk if you're not avoiding/mitigating at least one of them.

The rest of what you said, however, we can certainly try. A tank (with no Break stacks) to eat the Double Attack (both of them) during Feud is the only way of being safe during it and, as I said, that's impossible if only one Massacre went out between them.

[Darksend]

You don't have the same tank eating double attacks all fight.

But you can, it is what I do for my guild. This is our setup.

Prot pally or prot warrior whichever is in the raid starts the fight tanking. I taunt every double strike before the feud.

Feud happens, while it is channeling our DK tank taunts. After it stops channeling we treat it like a normal phase just with us grouped, I taunt the 1 double strike when he gets the buff and use shield wall or one of our 3 pain suppressions we have to live. As soon as the double strike debuff fades, the DK tanks it until the next feud with me still taunting double strikes.

Next feud the pally takes it back and I take the double attack during feud again with no stacks and a shield wall or pain sup and the pally continues to cant from the feuded double attack till the next feud with me still taunting double attacks.

We have 4 pallies in the raid so we always have an LOH for the tank to top them up before they start tanking without the bot during feud, which helps a lot.

We're getting two double attacks every Feud, not one.

The second one is only for show, he never actually swings it. The same thing happens during normal phases as well, he will double strike then double strike massacre and if you watch the double strike is still on him during the massacre cast and when the cast ends the double attack simply goes away. I do not even taunt anymore on 1/2 the double attacks because I know he wont actually use it.

[Papapaint]

But you can, it is what I do for my guild. This is our setup.

You can, but the situation you're describing has your Fued tank sitting at 2 or 3 stacks of break during Fued if you get unlucky with the timing. At that point, you not only run the risk of having that tank be one-shot from a normal melee, but you also but significant unnecessary strain on your healers.

I don't see any way in which that strat is preferable to trading fued tanks, you're asking for higher healing output for no real reason and putting yourself at the mercy of RNG.

[Darksend]

You can, but the situation you're describing has your Fued tank sitting at 2 or 3 stacks of break during Fued if you get unlucky with the timing. At that point, you not only run the risk of having that tank be one-shot from a normal melee, but you also but significant unnecessary strain on your healers.

I don't see any way in which that strat is preferable to trading fued tanks, you're asking for higher healing output for no real reason and putting yourself at the mercy of RNG.

we have never had a tank death during feud unless it was me to double strike because the priests forgot the PS me.

We also use 3 tank speced tanks, where as I see most people using DPSers.

[Zellviren]

The second one is only for show, he never actually swings it. The same thing happens during normal phases as well, he will double strike then double strike massacre and if you watch the double strike is still on him during the massacre cast and when the cast ends the double attack simply goes away. I do not even taunt anymore on 1/2 the double attacks because I know he wont actually use it.

Ah... Thanks, Darksend - everything said previously by Papapaint now makes sense and will undoubtedly help.

We have 4 pallies in the raid so we always have an LOH for the tank to top them up before they start tanking without the bot during feud, which helps a lot.

This is what I find most objectionable; even in a 10 man raid, a Protection paladin brings Divine Guardian, Lay on Hands and the best self-healing of the four tanks. On several encounters, paladins are changing the difficulty just as dramatically as DK's were back in Ulduar, but have escaped the bat for some reason.

Will the 20 second cooldown on Word of Glory rebalance them? We'll see.

[Papapaint]

we have never had a tank death during feud unless it was me to double strike because the priests forgot the PS me.

We also use 3 tank speced tanks, where as I see most people using DPSers.

Again, I didn't say it was impossible, simply that you're not using the ideal strat. The strat discussed in the video and my posts is the least likely to be affected by RNG while allowing you to maximise your RDPS. If you want to use another strat, that's perfectly fine, and part of the fun of this game. However, just because you've never gotten unlucky doesn't mean that your strat is superior.

[Sergeant Howie]

My guild is now handling the first phases perfectly on 10 man, but today we kept wiping in the mortality phase, our best try beeing wipe at 1% but usually at 10-5%. Even if we hold back to heal everyone up before we push him below 20% and save tank cd`s for the last phase and have our paladin taunt at 20.5% or so we are still beeing destroyed before we can get the kill. We also spread as the last phase hits.

It could be that we just are incredibly unlucky with the rng and tanks dieing too soon in the last phase. Any other tips on how to handle the last phase apart from pushing more dps? We are using a dps/tank speced Feral as MT and two full tanks as OT`s.

[klausi]

Even if we hold back to heal everyone up before we push him below 20% and save tank cd`s for the last phase [...]

That sounds to slacky to me. Stop at 21%, wait for a massacre - clump up while massacre is casted and top every one off afterwards. You've 14s until the caustics hit the raid to top everyone and push him below 20%.

Then use +1200 primary stat potion, lust and there you go. First kills are a tad rng/luck depended, your tanks need some good avoidance streaks to manage this..

Have every dps shatter/feign death/etc before it's their turn and have everyone use defensive cooldowns (barskin etc.) to survive even further vs the shadow aura.

[Darksend]

You can, but the situation you're describing has your Fued tank sitting at 2 or 3 stacks of break during Fued if you get unlucky with the timing.

see this confuses me, we must be misunderstanding each other because this CANNOT happen. Which tank are you talking about tank a tank b or the double attack tank?

the double attack tank using our strat never gets a single stack of break the entire fight

you cant possibly mean tanks a or b because you said it yourself Since the duration of Fued is 30 seconds, and the ICD on Massacre in general is 30 seconds, there's no way B will still have stacks of break unless you've made an error somewhere.

So I am really unsure where the misunderstanding is happening.

[Papapaint]

see this confuses me, we must be misunderstanding each other because this CANNOT happen. Which tank are you talking about tank a tank b or the double attack tank?

the double attack tank using our strat never gets a single stack of break the entire fight

you cant possibly mean tanks a or b because you said it yourself Since the duration of Fued is 30 seconds, and the ICD on Massacre in general is 30 seconds, there's no way B will still have stacks of break unless you've made an error somewhere.

So I am really unsure where the misunderstanding is happening.

Break is a 60 second debuff. If you do not alternate tanks between fued phases, it is possible for Break to still be on the fued tank, because it is possible for chimaeron to case fued multiple massacres in a row.

Unless I'm blatantly misunderstanding you, it sounds as though you have Tank A (who tanks during most of the encounter), Tank B (tanking fueds) and Tank C (double attacks). With this setup, it's entirely possible for Tank B to have multiple stacks of break.

[Darksend]

Break is a 60 second debuff. If you do not alternate tanks between fued phases, it is possible for Break to still be on the fued tank, because it is possible for chimaeron to case fued multiple massacres in a row.

Unless I'm blatantly misunderstanding you, it sounds as though you have Tank A (who tanks during most of the encounter), Tank B (tanking fueds) and Tank C (double attacks). With this setup, it's entirely possible for Tank B to have multiple stacks of break.

AHHH ok makes sense now. No, tank a and b tank the same amount. Tank a tanks the pull till he casts the first feud then B taunts. A does not taunt back until the next feud by which time even if it is on the next massacre break will still be gone.