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Thread: Prot Warrior Gearing Confusion

  1. #21
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    Block is only EH if you have 102.4% passive block+parry+dodge+5% miss, in which case it sort of acts like armor. However, I still prefer to think of block as it's own thing, separate from avoidance and EHP.

    Really when it comes down to it, it's a matter of semantics, we're all talking about the same thing here.
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  2. #22
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    No. Block is mitigation
    I'm pretty sure I said that. It's even in the quote that you put at the beginning of your post. Try reading the whole thing.

    Stating that EH=Stamina is wrong.
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  3. #23
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    I didn't really say EH was stamina, but you can not deny that an Integral portion of EH was stamina, to say block is a different form of EH isn't something I really agree with. People are not currently gearing for EH because the current worst case scenarios do not kill people that is why people are shying away from armor and stam and are going for average damage reduction. Sure all stats played a small roll in EH but Stamina was undeniably king and without a huge choice in armor trinkets/enchants to say that EH would entail a whole lot more than stacking gems at this point in Cata would be hard to argue. What I do agree on is EH's primary goal was always to make the tank survive the encounter, the way current tanks are gearing is the same but instead of living through shitty scenarios they are living through sustained damage.
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  4. #24
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    .....How is armor not average damage reduction exactly?
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katzazi View Post
    No. Block is mitigation, but it's no mitigation you can be sure to have. At least until you reach unhittability. Most warriors will be able to have it 1/3 of the time, but at the moment it's not possible to definitly have it all the time. So most of the time it's a kind of rdm mitigation.

    EH is about what you can survive in the worst case. It never was about average case or something like this. The worst case is: You don't avoid anything and you don't have SB ready and you don't block. EH is the amount of dmg you can take all the time without needing a heal and being able to survive. You don't have block all the time, so it's not part of EH.

    Sure it's there 1/3 of the time, and that makes it really good during this time, just because EH ideas, but it's not a part of EH until we get passive unhittable and don't need SB for it any longer.
    It's there closer to 70% of the unavoided hits with most warriors, and that's without shield block up. That's pretty consistent, though not 100% by any means. Still, it's a hell of a lot more than 1/3.
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  6. #26
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    I never said anything about armor not being EH, in fact in my last post I pointed out how there isn't a whole lot of armor enchants/trinkets to work with during this expansion. While armor is EH please tell me how you would gear pure EH this expac in terms of armor. Because to my knowledge bar incredibly crappy armor trinkets that stam would be better than anyway there isn't any. You can't reforge for the armor, can't gem for it, there are no worthwhile armor kits that are better than other stam enchants. You ask people to read your posts, would be nice if you did the same for others without jumping down their throat and trying to tell them that block is EH.
    He who is afraid to lose will never win.
    Only when the power of love overcomes the worlds love of power, will mankind know peace.

  7. #27
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    People are not currently gearing for EH because the current worst case scenarios do not kill people that is why people are shying away from armor and stam and are going for average damage reduction.
    Please explain this sentence.

    edit: In it you STATE that people do "SHY AWAY FROM ARMOR" and go for "AVERAGE DAMAGE REDUCTION". So I asked "How is armor not average damage reduction?"

    You are inferring I said something I did not. I not only read your whole post, I re-read it to make sure you said what I thought you did. I recommend you do the same.

    How would I recommend gearing for EH this expac? Get to 102.4% miss/dodge/parry/block for 30% damage reduction which is far more than any amount of armor/stam you could possibly get from trinkets.
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  8. #28
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    I see your point, I shouldn't have said armor there. Merely didn't want to say stam then get yelled at for saying EH was only Stamina. I think as agg said we are all just discussing semantics, pretty sure we are all in agreement in the end. Of course nobody is really shying away from armor because there isn't really any good way to get armor nowadays since there are no armor heavy pieces of gear.
    He who is afraid to lose will never win.
    Only when the power of love overcomes the worlds love of power, will mankind know peace.

  9. #29
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    Although I would have to say while armor is average damage reduction what I did really mean was what resulted in the most decreased damage over time, armor is definite but a mastery trinket would result in much more average damage reduction than an armor trinket. I just didn't word myself carefully enough I suppose.
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  10. #30
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    I think everyone should take some time to re-read this, especially the underlined, italics, bolded part at the very bottom:

    Section 2: EHP and terminology

    First: RNG, which stands for Random Number Generator. This is used to denote anything that is a statistical probability, not a certainty. That is there is a hidden dice roll to determine whether or not you dodge/block/parry/miss or get hit by an attack. This is a random number generator. I’ll discuss this a little more when talking about avoidance and the combat table.

    EHP stands for Effective Hit Points. Essentially what this is is converting incoming damage to a raw hit point value. It is a way to relate hit points to damage reduction. The reason is that the number one cause of tank death is running out of hit points, but hit points come in two forms, health and armor. Since armor reduces the damage you take, it acts like hit points in that it keeps you alive and you take less damage, damage that would otherwise need to be healed. So if you convert all incoming damage based on your damage reduction to “raw” hit points, you get how much the boss would hit for if you went from full hit points to zero if none of the damage was mitigated at all. So for a small example if you had 1000 hit points and 50% armor reduction and you were hit for exactly 1000 hit points, the actual hit unmitigated would be 2000 hit points, so a tank with 0 armor reduction and 2000 hit points could take the same equivalent damage as a tank with 1000 hit points and 50% armor reduction.
    The variable setup and subsequent equation for EHP is as follows:


    Hit Points: This is simply how many hit points you have. If you are evaluating a piece of gear and want the stam conversion then it is:


    Health = Stam * 10 * 1.1 * 1.09 * 1.15



    The 10 is simply 10 hit points per point of stam

    1.1 is the modifier for kings (10% increased stats)

    1.09 is for the warrior modifier for hit points (9% increased stam from vitality) and this number changes based on your class. For paladins it is also a 9% modifier, for blood DKs it is 1.03*1.08*1.02(runes) (which is 1.13465), and for druids I’m pretty sure for the number here it is 1.06*1.1*1.02*1.25 (6% from survival of the fittest, 10% from heart of the wild, 2% from imp MotW, and 1.25% from bear form)

    1.15 is 15% for the ICC raid buff currently.



    Armor: The reduction from armor is given by the following equation
    First we need a value “K” which is a static number based on blizzard calculations. The use of it will be more evident in the total armor equation. The equation for K is as follows:

    K = (467.5 * L) - 22167.5



    In this equation L is the level of the mob you are fighting. Therefore at level 80 a boss (level 83) would yield an L value of 83. Subsequently solving this equation we can get the constant we are looking for:

    K = (467.5 * 83) - 22167.5
    K = 16635



    This is going to be the constant value we use in the armor calculation. Remember the constants 467.5 and 22167.5 come from blizzard set standards, at least as far as I can tell it does and it yields proper numbers so I assume it is correct.


    After this we can solve for the total armor reduction equation:



    Where M is the mitigation percent in decimal form and A is the armor value you have on your toon. So for an example if you have 35000 armor the equation yields:





    Therefore at 35000 armor the percent reduction against a level 83 mob is 67.78%
    A side not here, there is an innate diminishing return to the value of M. As A approaches ∞ it because significantly greater than K, but since K is still a part of it technically never reaches A/A or 1, so as A is really big, each increase in A is a smaller increase in total mitigation. To further illustrate I’ll give an example in 5,000 armor increments:





    As you can see by the 5,000 step increase in armor, the change in reduction gets smaller as you approach 75%. Now 75% is the actual cap, so the “Armor Cap” is 49905 armor.


    These values lead us to the final EHP calculation which in its simplest form is:





    However the denominator of this equation is a little tricky because you see the damage reduction values are not “Additive” they are “Multiplicative.” If it were additive then if you had 67% reduction from armor and 10% reduction from inspiration and 3% reduction from blessing if sanc you would add those up and have 80% damage reduction. However, this is not so, instead the damage is multiplicative meaning that each modifier gets multiplied by the last. Therefore for every reduction effect you add (1-%reduction) to the bottom. Essentially all classes have a set number of reduction effects when raid buffed: reduction from armor, some talent or presence, 10% from inspiration effects, and the 3% reduction on buffs like blessing of sanctuary or vigilance. If there are any other modifiers, you simply multiply them to the end of the denominator in the same (1-%reduction) form.


    Therefore the EHP calculation for a warrior raid buffed would be:





    Therefore the effective hit points of a prot warrior with 50,000 health and 35,000 armor fully raid buffed is 195,918. Meaning that if a boss was to hit the tank unmitigated and you turned the tanks mitigation into hit points, the tank could take 195,917 damage without dying.

    Now for some more terminology:

    I think one of the biggest misconceptions is “mitigation” versus “avoidance.” Mitigation is defined as a reduction in damage when hit. Therefore armor mitigates a hit because it still lands, but hits for less. Block is another form of mitigation in that when you do block the attack lands, but usually for just a decreased amount. However, since unless you have a warrior with shield block up or a paladin manages to get to 102.4% dodge+block+miss+parry (or warrior in an unhittable set), block still is somewhat RNG based since it is a % chance. I guess I’d call it probable mitigation, not guaranteed mitigation.
    And subsequently I do not consider block EHP. That doesn't decrease its importance and once you are unhittable (or what used to be uncrushable) you can consider block EHP. It does act as a defacto form of EHP when you block, which is why it is so good, but it is not generally considered part of the "EH" or "EHP" formula. Having said that, it does act as pretty much a metric f*** ton of armor when a block tank gets 102.4% unhittable, which is why it is so damned good right now, and why Blizzard probably nerfed armor buffs in cata in the first place.

    Furthermore, I'm pretty sure everyone here is actually agreeing, there's just terminology differences.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironsides View Post
    ... there are no worthwhile armor kits that are better than other stam enchants. ...
    I don't mean to nitpick, but in the case of a cloak enchant, isn't the +250 armor enchant to cloak still among the top options for tanks?

    Also I think in a few other slots, the enchant comparison comes down say avoidance vs. threat (vs block via mastery). In those cases you're really not choosing "avoidance over EH" because there simply may not be a good EH enchant available for the given slot (think gloves might fight that profile?).

    Also, I wouldn't assume that tanks are shying away from, or avoiding gearing for EH. I think it's more a case of looking at the available options, figuring out what works well *now*, and moving in that direction - currently that path appears to emphasize mastery (for block) and the avoidance stats more favorably. That could (and probably will, at least for some bosses) change as the new tiers of content are released.

    Honestly I don't think it's ever really "EH or Not-EH", it's more just that tanks are learning what works best with their groups right now, and are gearing towards that goal, regardless of which camp or philosophy that currently effective gearing strategy seems to align with.

  12. #32
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    Indeed and yes the armor to cloak enchant is basically still the best enchant you can use.
    He who is afraid to lose will never win.
    Only when the power of love overcomes the worlds love of power, will mankind know peace.

  13. #33
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    Look, EHP is an outdated term, frankly. Mainly because all the good parts about EH (mitigation) no longer matter in terms of how much damage a tank can take without heals.

    Read my lips. It is now all about.... drumroll...

    ...

    ...

    ...

    HEALING!!!! Healer mana, effective healing done (aka mitigation = healing that doesn't need to be healed = ridiculously good for healers). The benefit of mitigation in relation to how big your effective health pool is DOES NOT MATTER ANY MORE. For some fights there is a minimum amount of HPs you just must have based on certain boss abilities. This number is not as ambiguous as it once was because it relies on a specific boss ability for certain fights, as far as I can tell. Once you have around 180k-ISH hit points fully buffed, then the game becomes all about saving healer mana. Mitigation and Avoidance are how you do this.

    I can guarantee you that if you walk into a raid gemmed in all stam your healers are going to hate you, you're going to drain their mana, and you will die. I know this from experience. This is just to re-iterate that it's all about saving healer mana. You can't get avoidance levels that high any more, but with how good block is and how things work now, getting to a 102.4% unhittable level as a block tank is the best way to save your healer's mana.
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  14. #34
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    I pretty much agree with Agg's post above.
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  15. #35
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    Don't forget the whole big heal = big mana cost and thus your best way to save healer mana is to smooth out incoming damage as best as possible so smaller, efficient heals are used, which is another reason for block.
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  16. #36
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    ^ that too.
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  17. #37
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    Is this a fair summary of thought so far, as nothing has been firmly established...

    EH is important for fight with high magic damage, otherwise prot tanks are best suited running a set that follows the following guidelines:

    * Target Dodge/Parry/Block is 72.4% (102.4 - 5% base boss miss = 97.4-25% when shield block is used = 72.4%)
    * Parry, as I understand should be ~3% higher than dodge, as that's the equilibrium point for HtL's benefit with Parry over Dodge
    * Once 72.4% is reached, mastery should be un-reforged at a rate where parry stays ~3% higher than dodge.

    In high magic damage fights, EH will still be valuable, but the base set is a 72.4% set.

    Gemming for socket bonuses is best on tank gear, as a general guideline.

    *******

    The question I have, which runs counter to the above.. is why isn't 97.4% mastery/dodge/parry the target so 100% of the time there is damage reduction and shield block becomes a CD rather than an on CD ability?

    97.4% would guarantee 30% damage reduction minimum with some% dodged/parried. As it is, shield block has a 16.66% uptime, so 83.33% of the time, 28% of attacks will have no reduction on incoming damage....

    If the goal is making healing easiest since 3 or 4 swing kills are rare (and that's what CDs are for), it would seem that 97.4% would be the target?
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  18. #38
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    Yes, it would be, however, it's pretty hard to get there at current ilevels AFAIK.

    I'd be careful about the "magic damage" thing, because people will think that means fights like V&F or something, where mitigation is still going to be the number one healing saver.

    See, the problem is, there isn't a fight that is going to do 150k+ burst damage to a tank and kill it. At the point in time you have enough HP to survive said magic attack, having more stamina still doesn't help.
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  19. #39
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    What I was hearing (been travelling, so I'm DPS with limited play) is there are a few fights were big burst magic damage followed by smaller melee attacks can be killers?

    It really isn't any different than WotLK - tanks had a stamina set and a base set (more armor), is it? You have proper gearing and then a situational set of gear (usally just a few pieces)?

    ***

    So the thinking with Mastery is kinda like ArP in wrath... You want up to X unless you can hit Y, then go for Y.

    So gear for 72.4% dodge/parry/block until you can hit 97.4% so you don't lose any value of shield block? If 97.4% ever becomes something that is feasible?
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  20. #40
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    Sure on the second half.

    I really hesitate to call Cata gearing anything CLOSE to WotLK gearing. The target stam minimums are (relativistically speaking) significantly lower than in WotLK.

    Also: again, it's not about the tank, it's about the healers.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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