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Thread: Hit & Expertise are they something u should care about?

  1. #1
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    Hit & Expertise are they something u should care about?

    i(Pally tank) was talking with someone (pally tank) who told me they are switching everything to mastery... and i told him keep soft cap in expertise and hit, but i been looking around and it looks like no one in Heroic raids have hardly any expertise and hit.

    so should i not worry about it and instead of reforging into expertise and hit to the cap, or should i reforge out of hit and expertise?

  2. #2
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    Yes, you should reforge out of it. They are threat stats only.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
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    bosses not having parry haste, Vengeance being enough to hold aggro and taunts not missing are what made those stats less important for the time being.
    "People who thinks they know everything are a great annoyance for us who do" - Isaac Asimov

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    Do you guys never have to interrupt? I always am interrupting, our DPS never do unless specifically ordered to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaji View Post
    Do you guys never have to interrupt? I always am interrupting, our DPS never do unless specifically ordered to.
    Get better dps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    Get better dps.
    Heh, that's always a nice sentiment but sometimes you can't control that.

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    Being Hit capped has isn't as large a DPS loss for a DPS and it is a survivabilty Loss for a tank. most of my DPS like being hit capped, sure it sometimes is a theoretical DPS loss, but a missed attack tends to play havoc with their rotations: if an Aff locks Haunt misses he's pretty much shit out of luck, a Fury warrior is just easier to play with smooth rage intake, an Arms warrior who misses colossus smash is buggered. A Tank with less mastery is harder to keep up, a tank with less stamina is harder to keep up, a tank with less Avoidance is harder to keep up; the vast majority of my wipes have not been to DPS missing an Enrage timer. They've been to OOMed healers and tank deaths

    the reason Pallies are Got rebuke and kittehs got Skullbash is becuase it's now considered a basic part of your melee DPSes Job, its why they all have 10second or less CDs for their interupts. Not all tanks have that, Pallies (at least this patch) don't have a reliable interupt at all with AS being part of their rotation, Warrior's have a 12sec in Shieldbash. If interupting was meant to be a tank's bread and butter, we'd all have standardised interupt abilities, just like we all have a 2min 50% dmg redx CD and an 8 sec taunt, and acces to the AP reduction and Melee dehaste buffs.

    A melee who can't interupt is a lame duck, just like a Tank who can crit or a healer who's OOM 15 secs into a fight.

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    Tell your Warriors to spec into Rude Interruption...then they will yell at you for interrupting!
    Maintainer of Rawr.ProtWarr theorycrafting tool. Feel free to PM suggestions or feature requests!

  9. #9
    Are prot warriors the only ones with 12 sec interrupt, all other melee is 10 sec or less, including the three other tank classes. Is there a reason prot warriors are still at 12 sec or at this point should it be 10 sec like everyone else?

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    They have multiple ways to deal with spell casters. Charge, Intercept, Shield Bash, Concussion Blow, and talented Heroic Throw. Why reduce to 10 seconds or even 6 seconds when they can use something else?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    most of my DPS like being hit capped, sure it sometimes is a theoretical DPS loss,
    when is being hit-capped a theoretical dps loss for the dps classes?

  12. #12
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    Whenever you gem for it, enchant for it, or otherwise chase it over your prime stat. The old stat weighing assumption "After Hit Cap" or "After Expertise Cap" is no longer necessarily a given.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    Whenever you gem for it, enchant for it, or otherwise chase it over your prime stat. The old stat weighing assumption "After Hit Cap" or "After Expertise Cap" is no longer necessarily a given.
    Why would gemming or enchanting make a difference? It only has to do with the total stats on your entire gear set, not any individual part of it. 100 Hit rating is 100 hit rating whether it comes via gems, enchants, or static on the gear itself.

    The only times I've seen any DPS class go for anything less than the hit/exp cap is if a significant part of their damage can not miss (Ret Pallies for a short while, Shadow Priests, etc). Most all other sims and stat wieghts put Hit at the absolute top if you're not capped (and expertise if you're melee).
    Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andenthal View Post
    Why would gemming or enchanting make a difference? It only has to do with the total stats on your entire gear set, not any individual part of it. 100 Hit rating is 100 hit rating whether it comes via gems, enchants, or static on the gear itself.

    The only times I've seen any DPS class go for anything less than the hit/exp cap is if a significant part of their damage can not miss (Ret Pallies for a short while, Shadow Priests, etc). Most all other sims and stat wieghts put Hit at the absolute top if you're not capped (and expertise if you're melee).
    I think some of the sims you are using might be old. I've been browsing EJ recently as well as other sites, and everywhere the common theme for Cata is that hit and expertise are way down in the priority list, even if below hit cap. One MIGHT be able to argue if hitting was absolutely necessary (deathstrikes for blood DKs or something like that).

    As for gemming, I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Sure 100 hit rating is the same regardless of source, but in the case of gems, you get to choose 100 hit rating or 100 str/agi/int/whatever, The DPS gains from your prime stat, even below hit cap, appear to be better than 100 hit. What it's saying is that a few misses aren't going to kill you as long as you hit harder when you do connect, which wasn't true in WOTLK.

    What gets trickier is reforging, as you generally cannot reforge to a prime stat, as most times it's already there.

  15. #15
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    Hrmm, that's the exact opposite of what I have been reading.
    It's hard to find the post on EJ, as it's not the top post in a thread, but TGM's guide here says to get Hit to 8% and Exp capped out before stacking STR.
    http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...-Warrior-Guide

    Stat wieghts don't care if you get the stat from a gem, an enchant, or any other source. If it says Hit to 8% before going for STR, it means that you do that. It doesn't mean - Get 8% hit, unless you have to use gems to get there. If you're under hit cap, and the stat weight says that Hit is better than STR, then putting a STR gem in your gear when a hit gem could go there, would yield less DPS than putting a hit gem in that socket. It being your primary stat is irrelevant - otherwise they would just leave it out of the stat weighting.
    Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

  16. #16
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    I just checked out EJ and for DPS warriors, they seem to agree with you that soft-capping is good. I must be looking at other classes. For example, for rogues, http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t110016-...ated_1_7_11_a/ Aldriana says hit is below agi by a fair margin, as well as expertise, and talks about it in depth. I recall this for other classes too, but searching other classes that I didn't check, like enh shamans, say differently.

    Bah. *gives up and sulks over in EJ*

  17. #17
    The Tank's job is not only to minimize damage he takes but also to minimize damage your party takes. I love having 26 expertise and 7% hit, it helps keep my threat very high and the mobs on me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andenthal View Post
    Why would gemming or enchanting make a difference? It only has to do with the total stats on your entire gear set, not any individual part of it. 100 Hit rating is 100 hit rating whether it comes via gems, enchants, or static on the gear itself.

    The only times I've seen any DPS class go for anything less than the hit/exp cap is if a significant part of their damage can not miss (Ret Pallies for a short while, Shadow Priests, etc). Most all other sims and stat wieghts put Hit at the absolute top if you're not capped (and expertise if you're melee).
    Because you're choosing to gem hit/expertise over Str/Mastery. That can be a theoretical DPS/Survivability loss. 27% hit is not attainable yet, but the 7-8% hit is mandatory. For my Fury spec I gem Str atm.

    In other words, it's best to get your hit/expertise from reforging and gear choices...not from gems/enchants.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andenthal View Post
    Why would gemming or enchanting make a difference? It only has to do with the total stats on your entire gear set, not any individual part of it. 100 Hit rating is 100 hit rating whether it comes via gems, enchants, or static on the gear itself.

    The only times I've seen any DPS class go for anything less than the hit/exp cap is if a significant part of their damage can not miss (Ret Pallies for a short while, Shadow Priests, etc). Most all other sims and stat wieghts put Hit at the absolute top if you're not capped (and expertise if you're melee).
    My rogue, as an example. I'm mutilate, and at my gear level (Trei on Firetree), assuming under the cap, yellow hit is only worth 57% of what agility is worth, and yellow hit is the best rating for me (followed by spell hit) - expertise is near the bottom. As such, if I ever have a choice between agility and hit rating, even under the yellow hit cap, I will lose DPS if I choose hit every time. And since with gemming/enchanting there's that option, I always want to choose agility.

    Reforging, however, is a different story. You cannot reforge to/from a primary stat (stam/int/agility/strength), and so there is never a choice between agility and hit there for me. For reforging, it's just a matter of choosing your best rating and reforge to it from your worst rating. If I could reforge agility (for some weird reason...) I would have almost no hit on my gear. Agility is just that much better.

    Combat is the same as assassination for this. The case is similar with destruction warlocks, where hit rating below the cap is about 70% as good as int. Affilction and demo are similar in how they rank the two comparatively. I'm willing to bet that it's also the case with some other classes, but I haven't looked into them much.

    I know at the same time, though, that for elemental shamans, hit/spirit > int. So it really depends on the class/spec. But it's no longer set in stone that hit to the cap is the best thing to do in all DPS situations. In the cases where it's not, though, hit is usually the second best stat, followed by the other ratings at a noticeable chunk of worth lower.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    They have multiple ways to deal with spell casters. Charge, Intercept, Shield Bash, Concussion Blow, and talented Heroic Throw. Why reduce to 10 seconds or even 6 seconds when they can use something else?
    Because we can't always use something else. Some abilities, esp on boss mobs, are interrupt only i.e. bosses can't be stunned or silenced, etc.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nayre View Post
    My rogue, as an example. I'm mutilate, and at my gear level (Trei on Firetree), assuming under the cap, yellow hit is only worth 57% of what agility is worth, and yellow hit is the best rating for me (followed by spell hit) - expertise is near the bottom. As such, if I ever have a choice between agility and hit rating, even under the yellow hit cap, I will lose DPS if I choose hit every time. And since with gemming/enchanting there's that option, I always want to choose agility.
    Yes, for most classes the base stats are better than hit/expertise. BUT in most cases you don't have a choice between base stats and hit/expertise. You have a fixed amount of base stats on gear and can chose between different secondary stats in the other slots, if you are comparing gear of the same ilvl. Further, you seldom have a choice with enchants. Most times there is only one or it is between some secondary stats. Or one is clearly better. Additionally, as you said, you cannot reforge your base stats (with the exception of spirit which is treated as a secondary stat all the time and does not matter for the discussion anyway).

    So the ONLY things where you can make a decision between base stats and secondary stats (either hit/expertise or something else) are gems and trinkets. Everything else has fixed base stats.

    So your point that base stats may be batter for many classes is just not valid. I admit, I don't know enough about rgues. But For all casters it's quite good to get to the hit-cap. They may defere greatly about haste, crit and especially mastery. But reaching the hit cap is just a net gain. I know that reaching hit-soft-cap and expertise-cap are the first goals for fury and probably most other melee. At least as you are not speaking about Str/Agi.

    This leads to hit/expertise beeing the best things to optimise for dps classes at all the things, where you cannot choose base stats. That's the item itself and reforging. Even when you think about trinkets - there are some with decent procs that have hit/expertise as a stat. And for gems - you want to activate your meta. At the moment this requires more blue gems than red gems for most DPS. So that's probably hit again. (Well this will gladly be changed with the next patch but the patch is not life.) And even when you don't need so much blue later on, you may need some to get attractive bonusses.

    So: getting to the point where hits don't miss anymore is a quite important goal for dps. That base may be valued higher does not change anything. On the other hand, hit and expertise don't do anything for tanks. Threat is quite enough and investing in hit expertise hurts their survivability. It will help your raid much more, if your dps fokus on getting hit/expertise capped while your tanks doing something else.

    That said: Tanks probably will try to interrupt as a backup, but sometimes their CDs may be too long anyway. And most dps can choose talents that give them quite nice buffs if they interrupt something. 5% additional dmg is huge, it's much more than any trinket will give you.

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