Defending Impending Victory

[Reev]

at the end of the day, IV gives you HP you didnt have.. we are tanks.. our job is to live before anything else. i just dont see a reason not to have it. sure, paladins dont need wog, but i dont think any are running around cursing it, and not using it at all

Paladins get WoG for free. IV is not free. It comes at the cost of 2 talent points and the extra healing your VR would do on non IV VRs without the talent.

[praetoria]

yea, we got the short end of the stick... take it like a warrior.

[MellvarTank]

....Or don't take IV. I will be looking at Victory Rush damage with the buff to War Academy, but I suspect that it will still not be a staple talent.

[Kojiyama]

Victory Rush should hit moderately hard with War Academy due to its AP scaling. Its main problem is (lack of) SnB synergy.

[praetoria]

I dont see what you will accomplish by discrediting a self healing ability. threat is almost non existent right now, and thats with 2% hit and 9 expertise. Im not saying YOU MUST TAKE DIS RWAR! But likewise im sure someone could discredit many of the abilitys available right now if they went out of their way to do so. However I run with 2 prot specs, i dont run as dps at all. In that sence i sapose i have more options and the 2 talent points dont effect me as much as they might someone else.

[Reev]

I'm not trying to discredit it. I'm just saying it's not worth it to me.

[Kojiyama]

If it was a trained passive, there would be no need. However, it is a talent that competes with other talents.

It is a talent with a lot of weaknesses and negligible gain. It could easily be improved with some minor changes, but those changes have yet to happen.

[Maèl]

I like Revenge as it is. For what it's worth they might just as well make it equal to Devastate in terms of damage. It is a low rage high damage ability and hits two targets.
The idea behind IV is nice. But there shouldn't be any downsides. Especially no SnB is a problem. I like the idea of an Execute like ability for tanks. But it should also proc SnB.

Has anybody tested if you get IV from heroic lvl 72 BC dungeon bosses? Grey trash? I see no reason why you shouldn't but never tested it myself.

[MellvarTank]

I prefer regular VR for anything that isn't a raid, and even in a raid regular ol' VR is amazing. Whelps on Halfus? Hello full health bar. Trash? Though difficult, it's still possible to proc a VR off of them and help out the healers. I much prefer the bigger heal to the smaller one, and with the other healing/passive healing increase talents we get I see no need for these talent points.

[Airowird]

You missed Glyph of Devastate. Additionally, Devastate has a higher Crit rate from Sword and Board.

It probably depends on the exact setup (I will double check everything tonight--think I know what would cause our analysis to differ somewhat), but the issue is that one can argue that once Devastate even starts getting close to Revenge, dropping the 2 talent points required to prop Revenge up is worth the gains elsewhere. e.g. for those who have 33+ talents in Protection, they could drop those two points into Deep Wounds for an larger single-target TPS gain and a simpler rotation with no utility loss.

Revenge does need some buffage, and I also think it's wrong how much it relies on Improved Revenge to be viable.

Not that I like Impending Victory at all. I think it's pretty terrible and far too situational to be a staple talent.

I actually mentioned both those, but because I can't know your exact crit rate, I can't reliably give the math that is universely correct.
The extra 20% crit is roughly 15-20% extra damage, and can get higher if you have Deep Wounds.
As I mentioned, 15.5% extra damage is most likely not enough to compete with the 20% crit, but I cannot possibly see anyone get 85% extra damage out of 20% crit
And while dumping the talent means you can lose Revenge from your rotation, taking the talent still means you do more TPS/DPS (and possibly Cleave some damage, which may or may not be a good thing). The only question then becomes: Are there any talents more valuable than this one? Valuable can mean either doing more damage/threat or more survivability.

I agree on Revenge needing some loving, as usual Blizzard seems to forget the whole Rev vs Dev scaling issue.
The talent should not have to be more than 20% on top of the Cleave to be valuable.

On IV: It's an expensive small heal. It takes an average of 3 GCDs (2 Devastate & VR), costs a loss in threat, is random and very restricted (<20% only) and worst of all... it's worth about as much as an efficient heal from a healer.
If you compare it to Blood Craze, it will on average do about twice as much healing over a single-target fight... if you use nothing but Devastate & VR at the last 20%
Because most bosses that aren't tactic/execution based have an Enrage mechanic at low HP, 2/3 Blood Craze will actually come out way closer to IV, not only because that last phase is much shorter, but also because you need to burn that boss down fast and VR damage will not help you there! The only bosses I would personally consider IV for is Elemental Council in BoT and MAYBE Al'akir for if you have the lightning rod. And even then I would not even consider it untill I had to do it on heroic.

[Kojiyama]

I actually mentioned both those, but because I can't know your exact crit rate, I can't reliably give the math that is universely correct.
The extra 20% crit is roughly 15-20% extra damage, and can get higher if you have Deep Wounds.
As I mentioned, 15.5% extra damage is most likely not enough to compete with the 20% crit, but I cannot possibly see anyone get 85% extra damage out of 20% crit
And while dumping the talent means you can lose Revenge from your rotation, taking the talent still means you do more TPS/DPS (and possibly Cleave some damage, which may or may not be a good thing). The only question then becomes: Are there any talents more valuable than this one? Valuable can mean either doing more damage/threat or more survivability.

I agree on Revenge needing some loving, as usual Blizzard seems to forget the whole Rev vs Dev scaling issue.
The talent should not have to be more than 20% on top of the Cleave to be valuable.

Indeed. There are quite a few variables with crit rate, Vengeance vs. base weapon DPS, etc. so Devastate will certainly not be universally better than Revenge for every player. (As always, take posted numbers with a grain of salt as things don't universally apply!)

However, I think it's close enough after the patch that if you have 33+ points in Protection, have Improved Revenge, and don't have Deep Wounds/Cruelty that swapping Improved Revenge for 2 points in Deep Wounds/Cruelty and dropping Revenge is a net DPS increase. (Again, I'll double-check these numbers later tonight when I'm at home.)

This would, at the very least, slightly increase the viability of Impending Victory due to more proc opportunities. Of course, you lose the Cleave which can be either good or bad depending on the fight.

[praetoria]

i guess what i was getting at was... it appears that after this patch, revenge ( thought i hate hate hate to say this, and think its as much as a mistake on blizzards part as anyone else here) shows no major advantage over dev.. if we are back to a dev spam in terms of a max tps rotation, it just seems to make a lot of sence to replace rev with VR in our -20% single target rotation. i understand the down side, but in theory, by the time a boss is at 20%, the tanks should be miles ahead on threat anyway. likewise, it seems practical that healers will be running on near empty and the situational advantage appears to be worth the 2 points ( NOTE- i say again, i run with 2 prot specs. so it may feel a lot less painfull to me then someone who pvps or off specs dps). atm, i plan having a max surv. spec, and a max dps/tps spec once the patch hits. Ill have to see the differences once the patch is actually live, but if they are even close in terms of dps/tps i will be inclined to drop a max dps/tps spec for a utility spec. Atm, threat really isnt a major conern to me. we will see what happens with the patch.

[Airowird]

Just checked on the numbers I had on my spreadsheet:
~16k AP, 14% crit, 3.33% hit, 21 expertise, 462 DPS 2.6s weapon, 309 haste (don't ask me why I got that in there!!)
Using:
HS on CD, 11 SS per minute (every 5.45s) with 4 of them in HR
Other 29 GCDs: Revenge ever 6s if improved, if not just Dev spam

With War Academy & Cruelty, you gain ~244 DPS (810 TPS)
If you add 2 Shockwaves & 3 Thunderclaps instead of Devastates, you get ... a 215 DPS loss.
Note that I excluded BnT gain from this, the 3 Thunderclaps would grant far more Devastate than in the first Dev-spam example.

In other words, Imp. Revenge is not useful as long as you can 3-button-spam tank like a braindead scrub. For any other situation, it still seems useful enough to keep, although the difference in DPS (<3%) is small enough to consider Deep Wounds for an alternative style on talents (e.g. add tanking)

PS: VR is a <5% gain over Devastate at 2/3 DW, and is even then a near guaranteed DPS loss due to SnB procs. Feel free to chose it if you REALLY think that <10k heal every time RNGesus feels like you earned it is going to save your life, but as a healer myself, I can guarantee you that no wipe I have done so far would've been any different if the tank could heal himself for this every 5s or so.

[Kojiyama]

Yeah, after re-running the numbers with some adjustments to match the numbers you're using I got similar results. Improved Revenge is not a straight-out loss to Devastate, but it is still non-optimal compared to Deep Wounds/Cruelty if you are avoiding getting them for the sake of Improved Revenge.

With my character example, I was gaining slightly over 300 DPS from swapping 2 points from Improved Revenge to Deep Wounds and dropping Revenge from the rotation.

So, not as dire as my initial numbers indicated but still not great. Revenge is still too weak baseline to be particularly useful.

[praetoria]

yea i was planning on specing DW. marginal differences between rev and dev just leaves rev all that less attractive no matter how you look at it. unless you just want to keep rev for no good reason at all ...

but then theres splash damage.. which on some fights is appealing.

[Wick]

I'm not convinced on Impending Victory. There are so many good places to put those 2 points. I like that without the talent, it's a really big heal. If I could get it for free, I'd use it, but it's not worth the opportunity cost to me.

It looks like in this statement you believe that Impending Victory reduces the heal from a kill. With this talent you get BOTH a kill healing (great for tank to finish adds and get a 50k heal) and a 9% heal when target is below 20%

As for the better to do dps than to have extra survival skills arguement so many are presenting, I suppose I'm expecting a less than ideal situation. If I could prove/understand that my personal dps will reduce the damage I take because of a shorter fight I'd take in comparison to the extra survivability I would have with this talent, that might be convincing.

[Wick]

Has anybody tested if you get IV from heroic lvl 72 BC dungeon bosses? Grey trash? I see no reason why you shouldn't but never tested it myself.

Yes it works for all these things.

[Demoneyes82]

It looks like in this statement you believe that Impending Victory reduces the heal from a kill. With this talent you get BOTH a kill healing (great for tank to finish adds and get a 50k heal) and a 9% heal when target is below 20%

As for the better to do dps than to have extra survival skills arguement so many are presenting, I suppose I'm expecting a less than ideal situation. If I could prove/understand that my personal dps will reduce the damage I take because of a shorter fight I'd take in comparison to the extra survivability I would have with this talent, that might be convincing.

Mathamatically that should be easy to show:

Assuming devestate spam to proc IV:
40 Devastates per minute @ 1.5sec GCD
25% = 10 heals per minute
150k hp @ 5% + 40% for Field dressing = 10.5k heals

so 10 heals @ 10.5k = 105000 over the course of a minute so something like 1750hps

In a minute you can heal yourself for 70% of your total health. That doesn't seem like much to me when you probably take that much damage in just a few seconds from a raid boss.

[Kojiyama]

Yeah, that's a pretty easy thing to calculate in an abstract sense.

Take Omnitron 25N, say your raid DPS is on the higher end of 350k, which is about a 4:50 fight.

That means 50-58 seconds of time when Impending Victory can proc, which would yield a maximum average of around 13 Victory Rush heals. (2 GCDs to proc, 1 GCD to use = 3 GCDs, or 4.5s per heal.) With around 170k health this would give you just under 155k healing over the course of the fight.

Say 6 healers with an average HPS of 11k or something, which means you are saving the healing team just over 2 seconds of combined healing over the course of the fight.

To save them 2 seconds worth of mana through DPS, you would need to contribute at maximum an additional 2.4k DPS or so.

There are a few ways this can be balanced for:
a) Swapping 2 points in Impending Victory for other DPS talents
b) Using a higher DPS rotation than Devastate spam sub-20%

Let's look at a) first, as that would reduce your global DPS over the entire fight. Most heavy TPS (e.g. Deep Wounds/Cruelty) talents are worth around 300-350 DPS per point, which at worst would reduce your deficit to 1.8k.

As you would only be changing your rotation over the final 20%, this means you would need to gain 9k DPS in the final 20% from a rotational change to come out ahead.

This obviously isn't going to happen, as you probably only lose between 2.2-2.4k DPS from swapping to Devastate spam.

However, let's look at where we are after all this... We have basically reduced the DPS deficit to about half of the total target (1.34k vs. the total target of 2.4k), meaning that for all the annoyance, potential threat-capping, and RNG of Impending Victory you have saved your healing team roughly 1 second worth of mana over a nearly 5 minute period of time.

This is also using somewhat best-case average numbers for Impending Victory and not factoring in things such as:
a) Potential DPS increases from splash damage (e.g. Deep Wounds would give a much greater benefit on Omnotron due to Revenge and Cleave splash)
b) Cooldown usage/timing
c) Overheal percentages for the Impending Victory heal itself

While my numbers are obviously not universally applicable (and also totally different for 10-man) I think it should be a decent enough illustration that the power of this talent is pretty limited unless there is a very specific fight mechanic that supports its use.

As Impending Victory procs themselves are not nearly enough to support a Warrior surviving on their own for any notable period of time, the 'averages' are really the only thing that matters all that much. Unlike other self-healing abilities which are quite large in size, Impending Victory lacks any 'burst' healing factor to give it a stronger sense of utility--especially as it is anything but on-demand.

[Wick]

[QUOTE=Demoneyes82;486655]Mathamatically that should be easy to show:

Assuming devestate spam to proc IV:
40 Devastates per minute @ 1.5sec GCD
25% = 10 heals per minute
150k hp @ 5% + 40% for Field dressing = 10.5k heals

so 10 heals @ 10.5k = 105000 over the course of a minute so something like 1750hps

QUOTE]

A slight improvement on the math to include
Quote: Victory Rush
Impending Victory
Glyph of Victory Rush
Field Dressing

From what I understand the math to calculate for how much you would be healed using Victory Rush from a proc would be:
0,05*1,06*1,2*1,5=0,0954 :Unquote

( attributing the post {Protection "Impending Victory" Victory rush} started by Threia

Considering a tank at 150k hp, which is pretty low with full raid buffs, even with my gear (all heroics and epic faction/blacksmith gear), so let us instead consider 180k hp tank

13 successful IV hits for 17k each comes out to be 223k total or 3720 healing per second over the last minute of fighting (assuming that the last 20% of a boss fight is in fact one minute.
Healing per second in raids can be misleading, considering all the group heals figure into it. Suppos then that a 12k per second healing from one healer on a single target, and this then becomes a little less than 1/3 of a whole healer for the tank themselves.
I'm not trying to replace entirely the heals needed on a tank, but softening the blow is what tanks do, and increasing the dps on a tank to shorten the fight is not what I'd expect to be a priority.


As an aside, and often neglected by several of the above readers, regular victory rush which is always available, with all talents and glyphs associated is still available and heals a 180k tank for 57.2 k per kill