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Thread: Inner Rage Redesign

  1. #21
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    Well, Light (drk! ), you're definitely right about Heroic Strike. I've been extremely disappointed with the end result of what set out to 'solve' the Heroic Strike spamming issue ending up being a larger spam-fest than ever before. The new Inner Rage makes it even worse.

    At least with a 1.4s tanking weapon I could queue up Heroic Strike with on-next mechanics and not have to spam the button constantly. With its own special GCD, I have to mash the button constantly to avoid losing out on cooldown time. (I'm not sure the new queue works for the Heroic Strike/Maul/etc. GCD either? At least I haven't noticed that it does.)

    Quite a few times I miss out on marginal Maul uses on my Druid just because I'm having to press proc'd Mangles quickly as priority and my fingers get tied up a bit. Other than putting Maul back on mousewheel or something, it's hard to see a solution.

    It's unfortunate that in setting out of fix something, the end result has been a mechanic that is quite a bit worse.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    At least with a 1.4s tanking weapon I could queue up Heroic Strike with on-next mechanics and not have to spam the button constantly. With its own special GCD, I have to mash the button constantly to avoid losing out on cooldown time. (I'm not sure the new queue works for the Heroic Strike/Maul/etc. GCD either? At least I haven't noticed that it does.)
    You can't queue up spells that are still on cooldown. This is why I still spam my buttons like ever, because especially on my Shaman, I have a lot of spells with short CD I use and it's impossible to queue them unless the CD was at <GCD when you last used an ability.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    How about:

    Inner Rage
    "Whenever you reach 75 Rage or more, your Heroic Strike and Cleave cooldowns are reset and your next Heroic Strike or Cleave does 15% more damage, but costs 50% more Rage"
    Passive

    This would be on auto-cast, giving you extra HS/Cleave with the current Inner Rage buff
    Can we just not have a mechanic that blows 45 rage in 1 button press (and inbetween GCDs at that)?

    76 rage - procing IR
    Hit HS (45 rage) leaves you with 31
    Use SS as it's next in your rotation (20 rage) leaves you with 11 rage.

    That much rage on 1 button press just seems like an all or nothing sort of deal, where you can't burn just a little off, you have to burn it all off. (nearly 1/2 of our maximum rage, as opposed to just shy of 1/3).
    Last edited by Andenthal; 01-17-2011 at 04:31 PM.
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  4. #24
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    Well isn't that the same as I proposed?
    With the exception that IR refreshes your HS/Cleave CD but leaves your main rotation alone, in case you want to preserve Rage.
    It would also not waste 5 Rage on that Demo Shout just because you reflected a spell RIGHT before you pressed that demo button.
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  5. #25
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    I should have specified. I'm saying I do not like the +50% rage cost mechanic. It seems like it makes dumping rage into an all or nothing ordeal, or something you're trying to micromanage, as opposed to just manage.

    I was trying to illustrate a possible scenario where it could bite you in the butt. I don't like that I can blow 65 rage within a 1/2 sec time frame,potentially leaving me without the rage to continue my rotation. It semes more penalizing, than rewarding.
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  6. #26
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    At least with a 1.4s tanking weapon I could queue up Heroic Strike with on-next mechanics and not have to spam the button constantly. With its own special GCD, I have to mash the button constantly to avoid losing out on cooldown time. (I'm not sure the new queue works for the Heroic Strike/Maul/etc. GCD either? At least I haven't noticed that it does.)
    Sorry if I got you wrong. But I keep seeing this: ppl thinking HS and Cleave are on-next attacks. I'm 100% sure they are not. Just abilities, not on GCD with 3 sec cd atm. Go check it if you dont trust me.

  7. #27
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    Arek - they're not. They are on a separate CD than the GCD. Koji was just referring to previously, with the on-queue, you had 1.4 seconds to hit the button to queue to make sure you used it, now that it's on a CD, you have to spam it to limit the 'dead' time from when it is avaialble to when it is used. I'm 100% sure he knows they're not on-next-hit anymore XD
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  8. #28
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    I think we need to take a step back and look at inner rage as what it is.

    A WotLK rage scenario solution in a Cata world.

    Infinite rage is gone... sure you can stack hit and haste and create it, but you'd be giving up so much crit, and even mastery (and possibly str depending on your gemming) that you wouldn't be close to reaching the DPS ceiling for Fury.

    The highest DPS Fury output is going to come from the least amount of hit/haste needed to generate enough rage to use all GCDs plus some HS thrown in. I think that's a pretty safe declaration?

    Given that, Inner Rage, as it was designed, redesign, and now debated is just a poor mechanic. Instead, I think something more like this would be appropriate?

    Inner Rage: 30 Rage. 45 second CD - For 15 seconds all melee attacks deal 15% more damage.

    Thus Inner Rage becomes a DPS increase you want to use when you find yourself floating in rage but doesn't screw up rage resource management. It has the intended effect of providing 'bonus' damage for a decent rage cost and on a 45s CD, can be used fairly frequently.

    It may not be as large of a DPS increase as currently designed, but there would definately be benefit to it, and with 15 seconds of melee increase, it wouldn't be as 'bursty' and would instead be more spread out.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    Well, Light (drk! ), you're definitely right about Heroic Strike. I've been extremely disappointed with the end result of what set out to 'solve' the Heroic Strike spamming issue ending up being a larger spam-fest than ever before. The new Inner Rage makes it even worse.

    At least with a 1.4s tanking weapon I could queue up Heroic Strike with on-next mechanics and not have to spam the button constantly. With its own special GCD, I have to mash the button constantly to avoid losing out on cooldown time. (I'm not sure the new queue works for the Heroic Strike/Maul/etc. GCD either? At least I haven't noticed that it does.)

    Quite a few times I miss out on marginal Maul uses on my Druid just because I'm having to press proc'd Mangles quickly as priority and my fingers get tied up a bit. Other than putting Maul back on mousewheel or something, it's hard to see a solution.

    It's unfortunate that in setting out of fix something, the end result has been a mechanic that is quite a bit worse.
    Yeah their design stuff really confuses me sometimes. I know they want to take some of our focus off of hit and put it into mastery too and nerfing HS was supposed to accomplish that to some degree. Then they go and make this Inner Rage change which gives us the potential to pretty much never rage cap.

    Now in DPS mode we'll have to do a bunch of testing for whether its gonna be better to stack rage generation stats and spam HS more with Inner Rage or whether it will finally be better to ditch alot of that hit for some other stats. In Tank mode it will be very interesting to see what sort of DPS we can put out with Vengeance and Cleave. Prot Warriors can already get up there pretty high in large aoe fights and the ability to spam Cleave so fast will cancel out any nerf Cleave is receiving.

    I'm holding off on doing drastic changes based around these notes because I have a strong hunch many of them will be changed again such as Inner Rage and Recklessness due to PvP imbalances.

  10. #30
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    I remember reading something Blizzard posted that likened a Warrior hitting full rage as being like hitting a Limit Break in some other RPGs. Y'know, a brief period of time where you pulled off awesome combos and dealt damage like a pro.

    But I guess for the sake or realism and balance, pulling off feats that belong in a Final Fantasy game has no place in Blizzard's game.

    Still, this doesn't feel like my Warrior's "Inner Rage" anymore.

  11. #31
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    Honestly, I'm still partial to the Inner Rage suggestion I posted a few times on the beta forums.

    Inner Rage
    Passive
    You gain 1 stack of Inner Rage for each point Rage gained when at 100 Rage. Stacks up to 100 times.

    Inner Rage
    Your next special ability deals 1% additional damage for each stack of Inner Rage consumed.
    To me this is simple, straightforward, and lacks the awkward nature of the existing Inner Rage mechanics. It also seems to more ideally fit the descriptions GC has issued about Inner Rage--being that it's both 'limit break'ish and meant to provide extra damage when you are flush with Rage and can't spend it.

    In this case, if you are unable to attack your target (e.g. being kited or at range) and Rage-capped or are gaining Rage faster than you can possibly spend it (Tanks) then it gives you an outlet to deal additional damage.

    Obviously the conversion rates could be toyed with so the DPR is never beneficial to just sit at 100 Rage and do nothing, yet provides a healthy benefit when it triggers.

    Another option similar to this would be to have the stacking buff not be consumed by your next special ability, but instead require being stacked to 100 until it is 'unleashed' (e.g. Limit Break concept) and dealing 100% more damage on your next attack or something. Again, still not efficient from a DPR standpoint, but does not cost the Warrior anything to use. It is a way to compensate for loss of Rage due to the cap.

    I'd like this design a lot more. It's like storing the Rage you can't use due to the cap. Cool. It's like an Inner Rage or something.
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  12. #32
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    Koji - Wow. Yeah. That does seem to be a pretty good design. Probably the best suggestion yet.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  13. #33
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    Yeah, now that seems like a solution. Hell it would even remove HS. it does seem rather clunky that we have multiple options for dumping. AoE vs single taret that makes sense, but add IR on top and it seems rather much afterthought as it is now, and as its proposed to be. This seems bloody elelgant

  14. #34
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    How would it remove HS? As Koji said, 1% increase per point of 'stored' rage is very rage-inefficient damage.

    Say 30 rage HS does 10,000 damage, that works out to 333.333333 damage per rage.
    compare this to
    Say RB does 20,000 damage. Each 'stored' point of rage will do an additional 200 damage per rage.

    The numbers are obviously fictional, but they do give a rough idea of the differential in HS damage versus RB damage you would need to cut out HS. Plus the design would use it on Slam or BT as well, wiping out any 'stored' damage, so you couldn't save the inner rage for the next RB to maximize it's effect (though you might see a shout at full rage for that reason XD)

    Now there are probably some scenarios where HS wouldn't be as efficient (ALL procs/CDs used, CS, etc), but the liklihood of it all matching up...

    So I don't think it's something you'd ever modify your play too much for, and I don't think it would ever warrent dropping anything out of use.


    Unfortunately, this feels like one of those trades that makes too much sense NOT to make, and thus is never made. :-/
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  15. #35
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    The heroic strike change was also to allow: "i pushed a button, now i see damage."
    Remember that heroic strike was the ability that level 1 warriors started with, and it was really clunky for a levelling warrior (if not confusing). Now that you don't get heroic strike until level 14, it is certainly less of an issue.

    If this wasn't the case, HS and Cleave would now have a 3 second cooldown, but still be que-able. And making them que-able would solve the button mashing problem that we see now.

    But then the whole issue is that you lose your rage bar in a fraction of a second could be avoided simply by halving all rage costs and all rage generation. There's simply not enough buffer in the bar when an ability costs 45% of it. Or Inner Rage would be a lot less clunky in its current implementation if it didn't affect heroic strike/cleave.

  16. #36
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    As is, the new Inner Rage seems to have good synergy with an Incite proc. Though I'm not sure if there is any DPS gain from it.
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  17. #37
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    I dunno, I find the new inner rage very flawed on the HS end simply because of the nerfs to HS. The new thought is that for DPS we will be dropping a bit of hit since HS isn't going to be nearly as important and we will probably want to stack Crit > Mastery if 4.0.6 goes live in it's current state after hitting something like 10%-13% hit. Its one of those cases where the left hand didn't talk to the right hand. Whoever changed inner rage had a fairly decent idea if HS was left at it's former strength but the right hand that nerfed it ensured that nobody will ever have that much rage to spam it because it redefined our stat goals so that using HS is inefficient compared to other stats in the first place.

    Its much more useful for cleaving I think as it can provide you with a very nice boost to 3 target AoE damage both for tanking and dpsing.

    I'm with Jayde though, Inner Rage should be something horribly inefficient but have no additional cost to the warrior. As long as it has a cost it will most likely never be used simply because our stats will never allow the cost due to min/maxing.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightmgl View Post
    I dunno, I find the new inner rage very flawed on the HS end simply because of the nerfs to HS.
    On the other hand it fit very well in line with their goal of giving us a rage dump, and way to dump rage even faster when necessary.

    IR was never supposed to be a huge dps bonus (ie there was never any intent for warriors to save rage until 75, then IR and blow all their abilities). It was always supposed to be something that allowed us to use our rage quicker rather than wasting it rather than something to shoot for.

    The dps gain was just a bone thrown our way, since just letting our rage stay capped is also a way to 'bleed' rage with no dps gain.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    Honestly, I'm still partial to the Inner Rage suggestion I posted a few times on the beta forums.



    To me this is simple, straightforward, and lacks the awkward nature of the existing Inner Rage mechanics. It also seems to more ideally fit the descriptions GC has issued about Inner Rage--being that it's both 'limit break'ish and meant to provide extra damage when you are flush with Rage and can't spend it.

    In this case, if you are unable to attack your target (e.g. being kited or at range) and Rage-capped or are gaining Rage faster than you can possibly spend it (Tanks) then it gives you an outlet to deal additional damage.

    Obviously the conversion rates could be toyed with so the DPR is never beneficial to just sit at 100 Rage and do nothing, yet provides a healthy benefit when it triggers.

    Another option similar to this would be to have the stacking buff not be consumed by your next special ability, but instead require being stacked to 100 until it is 'unleashed' (e.g. Limit Break concept) and dealing 100% more damage on your next attack or something. Again, still not efficient from a DPR standpoint, but does not cost the Warrior anything to use. It is a way to compensate for loss of Rage due to the cap.

    I'd like this design a lot more. It's like storing the Rage you can't use due to the cap. Cool. It's like an Inner Rage or something.
    The problem with that idea (and probably why blizzard would never do it) is that because we can cap our rage pre fight. Warriors would be compelled to stack their rage ahead of time (like we already do), but we would gain a huge damage burst at the start of a fight.

    its just not something they would be willing to do. even tho the benefit is very slight because we start a fight with heroic throw or CS.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muffin Man View Post
    On the other hand it fit very well in line with their goal of giving us a rage dump, and way to dump rage even faster when necessary.

    IR was never supposed to be a huge dps bonus (ie there was never any intent for warriors to save rage until 75, then IR and blow all their abilities). It was always supposed to be something that allowed us to use our rage quicker rather than wasting it rather than something to shoot for.

    The dps gain was just a bone thrown our way, since just letting our rage stay capped is also a way to 'bleed' rage with no dps gain.
    I don't mean that because of an increase in DPS. I mean it is flawed because we will be gearing in a way that should prevent us from ever having that much rage to dump anymore since hit and haste will be seriously devalued because of the decreased usefulness of HS.

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