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Thread: Incoming Druid Tank dps nerf and Protection Warrior comparison and rotation changes.

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zantam View Post
    - DK are great, but they need to heal a little less, and mitigate a little more. They also have a little too much hp. To be well rounded, they could use a little movement boost. Unholy presence feels a little "meh" to use.
    Mitigation on a DK is strange as the mechanics of DS favor use after a heavy hit or period of damage. A Blood DK should be rotating their cooldowns for survivability, including deathstrike. If you're just spamming deathstrike every time it comes up, you're doing it wrong.

    As for health, not hardly. A little more would maybe offset some of that mitigation issue if anything. Yes, the self-heals are nice, but when you get down to it, a DK wouldn't be a functional tank without it. Heck, prior to patch 3.3.3, we were almost just a novelty tank. Blizzard originally built the class with a leaning towards frost as being the tank tree, and it was viable. Thing was, players actually found the blood tree, with frost pres running, to be a really great way to run and in many cases was superior to the "meh" of frost tanking. The whole blood tanking shift wasn't a Blizzard-designed occurrence, it was driven by the players!

    My real issue with what you said is in regards to Unholy Presence.

    Can you "stance change" to unholy presence for a little extra run speed? Yes.
    Problem is, the second you do that, you now lose your threat modifier from Blood Presence and you might as well be using a wet noodle to get anything's attention.

    Counter it with running with a speed boost enchant on your boots. Even if it's "Tuskarr's Vitality", which gives a small stamina boost, you'll be getting a nice run speed increase. Sure, it's not the +15% of unholy pres, but it's better than nothing.
    Last edited by Leucifer; 01-14-2011 at 10:41 AM.
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  2. #22
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    I agree, which is why I said that Unholy presence is kind of a cruel joke when it comes to mobility. Even the bear's stampeding roar is better, and everyone knows it's kind of crappy (not as much as our 85 spell, but that's another story).

    I think mobility should somehow be addressed by developers. It is a very important part of tanking, and seeing that warriors have heroic leap, intervene, and 3 charges makes me want to only play my warrior and drop my drood.

  3. #23
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    I'm pretty sure that it will not ever be addressed as the mobility factor of a warrior is the idea behind the class. They want tank diversity. DK's have death grip to pull enemies to them, that should be a pretty big hint that they are NOT mobile tanks and not ever going to be mobile tanks.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zantam View Post
    I agree, which is why I said that Unholy presence is kind of a cruel joke when it comes to mobility. Even the bear's stampeding roar is better, and everyone knows it's kind of crappy (not as much as our 85 spell, but that's another story).

    I think mobility should somehow be addressed by developers. It is a very important part of tanking, and seeing that warriors have heroic leap, intervene, and 3 charges makes me want to only play my warrior and drop my drood.
    Just a minor detail but... what 3 charges? I count Charge and Intercept. I realize that 3 is only 1 more than 2, but 3 is 50% more than 2 as well.

    More importantly, each class having it's own unique way to deal with distant mobs is important or else why did we even bother having more than one tank class? Warriors can charge all over the place, DKs were given Death Grip and a ranged AoE blanket (DnD). Both of those abilities handle the same situations as charge but in a different way that sometimes a warrior would just wish they had. Pallys have a bouncing rubber shield, blanket AoE, and a multi-taunt that cover the same situations as well. Druids do only seem to have charge, which does seem a bit less than what the other classes have and perhaps bears should have a Hurricane (Feral) that operates like a mage flamestrike for less damage than the balance Hurricane.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petninja View Post
    Just a minor detail but... what 3 charges? I count Charge and Intercept. I realize that 3 is only 1 more than 2, but 3 is 50% more than 2 as well.
    Heroic Leeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap
    (although it's much more restrictive *cough*cough*)
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    I'm pretty sure that it will not ever be addressed as the mobility factor of a warrior is the idea behind the class. They want tank diversity. DK's have death grip to pull enemies to them, that should be a pretty big hint that they are NOT mobile tanks and not ever going to be mobile tanks.
    Deathgrip is suitable as an extra, maybe, sometimes taunt.
    Try it sometime. How many bosses does it work on? At best, with most it works as a taunt. At best. (Charge, on the down side, has the unfortunate side effect of generally not stunning most bosses, and giving them almost one free shot at a warrior's back)

    Even on a LOT of mobs in dungeons I see the word "IMMUNE" go flying up often enough where I generally only use on trash that I KNOW for a fact it works on, or I save it as my last ditch "OMG I GOTTA GET THIS MOB OFF MY HEALER" butt-saving tool.

    Oh. It has one other use. Ranged interrupt. IF it can pull a caster-type mob, it usually will work as an interrupt.

    It's not a very consistent tool though compared to dark command/taunt, or charge, or intervene.

    All that said................................

    Mobility needs to be addressed in how you approach an encounter. I'm not going to handle an encounter with my DK the same way I would with my warrior. In some ways, yes. Pack of mobs?..... Lay down an AoE threat gatherer in order to grab the group. I shouldn't even be saying this as it should be common sense.

    Also, you have to take into account the group's play. Do you have a ranged dps'er who is targeting off your target? And is they do, what do they do when they pull that mob off you? If they can burn it down before it gets to them, fine. If they can't... what is their next action? Does the mage hit invis? Does the hunter feign death? Or..... do they keep attacking it and run away from you screaming "GET IT OFF GET IT OFF GET IT OFF!!!!"?

    A good tank will look at the situation and make a good decision. In the last case presented, if they run it out of range and me moving to pull it back could result in a wipe... hey, sorry... your poor dps play isn't my fault and I am responsible to the other 3 people to give them a chance to survive and be successful.

    Now granted, if they're close, I will TRY to taunt or get the mob off them. But at what point do you draw the line? The first time? Second? And, do you have the balls (or ovaries) to tell them, "Hey. You need to change the way you're doing this. At least, if you like surviving."

    Alright. Getting too long-winded and blah blah blah. Think I made my point.
    Last edited by Leucifer; 01-14-2011 at 06:09 PM. Reason: Bold print on key ideas for people who seem to be missing the points.
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  7. #27
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    Honestly guys although that stateofdps place is nice for dps classes, dont pay it too much stock for tanks. Tank classes do similar amount of dps at the end of the day, with only a 1k discrepancy between lowest and highest at high end raid level.

    The reason why you see warriors so high on that is cause of the simple fact warriors are the defacto tank MT in alot of these high end guilds and probably gear up faster, you probably have alot of lower geared paladin tanks tanking in the high end raid guild alt raids, who end up giving the paladin average dps lower, as in my experience paladin do more threat than warriors, even though warrior may do slightly more dps.

    I would like to see individual dps and threat parses (as at the end of the day , threat is important too) between similar geared tanks before i make any judgements tbh. In WOTLK paladins were always miles ahead of warriors in dps, and that never got fixed, if warriors truly are miles ahead of paladin in cata (remains to be seen tbh, as thats not what i have seen as a dps warrior, even that statsofdps place only shows a 1k diff at best), then i would NOT assume theres a fix coming any time soon. Druids on the other hand are for sure miles ahead lol in 5 mans anyway, they seem to love wearing dps gear though and some even try hit and expertise caping for some reason, so that i can believe.
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  8. #28
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    Deathgrip is suitable as an extra, maybe, sometimes taunt.
    Try it sometime. How many bosses does it work on? At best, with most it works as a taunt. At best. (Charge, on the down side, has the unfortunate side effect of generally not stunning most bosses, and giving them almost one free shot at a warrior's back)

    Even on a LOT of mobs in dungeons I see the word "IMMUNE" go flying up often enough where I generally only use on trash that I KNOW for a fact it works on, or I save it as my last ditch "OMG I GOTTA GET THIS MOB OFF MY HEALER" butt-saving tool.

    Oh. It has one other use. Ranged interrupt. IF it can pull a caster-type mob, it usually will work as an interrupt.

    It's not a very consistent tool though compared to dark command/taunt, or charge, or intervene.

    All that said................................

    Mobility needs to be addressed in how you approach an encounter. I'm not going to handle an encounter with my DK the same way I would with my warrior. In some ways, yes. Pack of mobs?..... Lay down an AoE threat gatherer in order to grab the group. I shouldn't even be saying this as it should be common sense.

    Also, you have to take into account the group's play. Do you have a ranged dps'er who is targeting off your target? And is they do, what do they do when they pull that mob off you? If they can burn it down before it gets to them, fine. If they can't... what is their next action? Does the mage hit invis? Does the hunter feign death? Or..... do they keep attacking it and run away from you screaming "GET IT OFF GET IT OFF GET IT OFF!!!!"?

    A good tank will look at the situation and make a good decision. In the last case presented, if they run it out of range and me moving to pull it back could result in a wipe... hey, sorry... your poor dps play isn't my fault and I am responsible to the other 3 people to give them a chance to survive and be successful.

    Now granted, if they're close, I will TRY to taunt or get the mob off them. But at what point do you draw the line? The first time? Second? And, do you have the balls (or ovaries) to tell them, "Hey. You need to change the way you're doing this. At least, if you like surviving."

    Alright. Getting too long-winded and blah blah blah. Think I made my point.
    ....I'm sorry but do you have a point?

    How many non-deathgrip-able things do warriors just randomly charge at? Does charge matter if you are main tanking Halfus in a raid? Of course not.

    Ranting about bosses not being deathgripable is silly, warriors charge in for rage, you have your abilities ready without HAVING to deathgrip for rage. If you see a warrior heroic leap into a boss they are not doing it for any reason other that to say "Check me out I can jump!", because it sure doesn't have any benefit to it.

    Talking about trash... I don't even understand what you are getting at. You said you want more mobility on a DK, I explained that it is an intentional design that they don't have it, then you rant about how you have to approach tanking differently. So..... yes? No wait.... No...... or yes? Maybe?
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  9. #29
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    Tanks are not supposed to DPS. Yes extra DPS can turn the tides in HM, but really, it should be about enabling tanks to hold snap aggro so that the DPS can unload right off the bat. The developers set out to have threat matter, but I don't think they succeeded, it's still the same old story is WOTLK, once a tank has aggro it's a foregone conclusion. This is after making MDs/TotT non-permanent threat. It may have something to do with the fact that hit and expertise are even less useful nowadays, and we didn't really need it in WotLK anyways.

    IIRC, Mangle was supposed to be our Shield Slam (never mind that DKs got fooked with IT no longer working that way, I think it should do high front end threat without a lot of damage). Mangle should be modeled that way, ass-tonne threat up front, as an opener until vengeance builds.

    I think our tiny bear p-nises... *ahem*... HEALTH POOLS, or more to the point, +10% stam modifier in bear form, was plain punitive for the Health Pools we enjoyed in WOTLK, and the same goes for the armor arugment. They are gonna let us suffer for a while as miserable wretches before buffing us back up. That's the way nerf/buff goes, we have been cycled out of the FOTM. Fellow Protadins, our demise is inevitable, in the next patch or so we will be nerfed to the ground, as we haven't been the joke of the tank family in quite a while. Sounds childish and nonconstructive, but it's the truth.

    I'm hoping the buff to Devastate is going to make it useful again, instead of "get to 3 stacks and then forget it". The way it is right now, Devastate is not much better than plain old Sunder Armor itself (and people wouldn't notice if you sundered or devastated, really).

  10. #30
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    @Krays
    If the difference were 5 or even 10%, I could agree about the gearing issue regarding main tanks getting gear first. But we're talking about a 20% (or larger) gap. Gear does make a difference, but not a 20+% difference, espeically considering it's just a handful pieces and not a whole tier's worth of gear.

    I know you are specifically referncing Paladins vs Warriors, but I'm talking all 4 classes.

    Also, for the most part, DPS = TPS. Most innate threat has been removed from the game. There's no more of the tank that does small damage, but big threat. Higher DPS = Higher TPS straight across.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    ....I'm sorry but do you have a point?

    How many non-deathgrip-able things do warriors just randomly charge at? Does charge matter if you are main tanking Halfus in a raid? Of course not.

    Ranting about bosses not being deathgripable is silly, warriors charge in for rage, you have your abilities ready without HAVING to deathgrip for rage. If you see a warrior heroic leap into a boss they are not doing it for any reason other that to say "Check me out I can jump!", because it sure doesn't have any benefit to it.

    Talking about trash... I don't even understand what you are getting at. You said you want more mobility on a DK, I explained that it is an intentional design that they don't have it, then you rant about how you have to approach tanking differently. So..... yes? No wait.... No...... or yes? Maybe?
    I DO have a point. You just latched onto what you wanted. I'll repeat in big bold print.

    Mobility needs to be addressed in how you approach an encounter.

    Quit trying to confuse the point.

    YOU said.... "They want tank diversity. DK's have death grip to pull enemies to them, that should be a pretty big hint that they are NOT mobile tanks and not ever going to be mobile tanks."

    I'm REINFORCING that point that they're NOT mobile by pointing out that death grip can't even pull all the various enemies. I'm making a case that the DK is even less mobile than someone might draw from your statement by pointing out the limitations of deathgrip. And I NEVER said a thing about "wanting more mobility". I DID follow it up by proposing a solution to the non-mobile tanks as to how to DEAL with their lack of mobility and improve it. In a nutshell.......

    Buff your mobility in the ways that you have available, and then adjust your approach to the encounter to suit the type of tank you have.

    Is that clear enough?
    Yeesh. Smart-asses. What solutions have you proposed? All you did was state the obvious.... that DK's are not a mobile tank. In all fairness, you are correct....

    "They want tank diversity."
    We have tank diversity, as Zantam pointed out.

    Adapt to the situation. Use what you have. And not just the tank! The dps and heals need to adjust what they do to the tank they have and vice versa.

    Take your warrior, since you kindly put out that example. YES. A warrior uses rage to build up resources. A DK has those resources ready to go from the start. Would that NOT logically dictate a different approach to a scenario? It might be better for a warrior to use a LoS pull where a DK could use its deathgrip to manipulate mob position. Or, the warrior might benefit from starting with a charge then dropping AoE, where a DK might apply its ranged AoE first before fully moving into position.

    Now, do you have anything positive or constructive that you'd like to add to the discussion?
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  12. #32
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    So wait.... you argued with me to say you agree with me?

    Color me confused.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andenthal View Post
    @Krays
    Also, for the most part, DPS = TPS. Most innate threat has been removed from the game. There's no more of the tank that does small damage, but big threat. Higher DPS = Higher TPS straight across.
    Almost all threat is based off of a modifier applied to the damage a tank deals to a target. (minus taunts)
    You can effectively use dps as a measure as to how much threat any tank will generate. It's not exact, as it will not take into account the changing threat multipliers for each ability, but it can be used as a measure for general threat generation.

    Used intelligently, say, single target dps of a warrior vs. paladin against the same target, you can draw some conclusions as to which tank may be able to hold solid threat. On a multi-mob encounter, dps can be used for two tanks, side by side, to determine which may have problems with AoE threat.

    Is it definitive? No. Does it give you quick access to useful information? I'd say yes.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    So wait.... you argued with me to say you agree with me?

    Color me confused.
    Seriously....

    If you'll be happy by me saying I agree. Here. Fine. I agree.
    There is tank diversity (which I made it clear I agreed with). DK's are limited in mobility (which I agreed with).

    Following up on the obvious statement:
    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    I'm pretty sure that it will not ever be addressed as the mobility factor of a warrior is the idea behind the class. They want tank diversity. DK's have death grip to pull enemies to them, that should be a pretty big hint that they are NOT mobile tanks and not ever going to be mobile tanks.
    I've proposed two solutions to DK's (or tanks in general) wanting to improve or deal with their lack of mobility.

    1) Improve mobility through enchants, meta gems, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    My real issue with what you said is in regards to Unholy Presence.

    Can you "stance change" to unholy presence for a little extra run speed? Yes.
    Problem is, the second you do that, you now lose your threat modifier from Blood Presence and you might as well be using a wet noodle to get anything's attention.

    Counter it with running with a speed boost enchant on your boots. Even if it's "Tuskarr's Vitality", which gives a small stamina boost, you'll be getting a nice run speed increase. Sure, it's not the +15% of unholy pres, but it's better than nothing.
    2) Change your approach to suit your needs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    Mobility needs to be addressed in how you approach an encounter. I'm not going to handle an encounter with my DK the same way I would with my warrior. In some ways, yes. Pack of mobs?..... Lay down an AoE threat gatherer in order to grab the group. I shouldn't even be saying this as it should be common sense.

    Also, you have to take into account the group's play. Do you have a ranged dps'er who is targeting off your target? And is they do, what do they do when they pull that mob off you? If they can burn it down before it gets to them, fine. If they can't... what is their next action? Does the mage hit invis? Does the hunter feign death? Or..... do they keep attacking it and run away from you screaming "GET IT OFF GET IT OFF GET IT OFF!!!!"?
    Again, if you have something constructive or useful to contribute, by all means, please add.
    Last edited by Leucifer; 01-14-2011 at 06:18 PM. Reason: Clarification and to remove a pointless slap against another poster. It's not needed and detracts from the discussion.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    Almost all threat is based off of a modifier applied to the damage a tank deals to a target. (minus taunts)
    You can effectively use dps as a measure as to how much threat any tank will generate. It's not exact, as it will not take into account the changing threat multipliers for each ability, but it can be used as a measure for general threat generation.
    Taking away AE abilities, there are only a handful of abilities that have innate threat modifiers - and most of them are tiny.
    Innate threat acounts for something like ~3% of all threat in a fight. (again discounting AE)

    DPS = TPS

    There will not be a situation where TankA does 10k DPS but does more threat than TankB that did 12k DPS. If the difference in DPS is less than 3%, then yes one tank may do more threat than another. Aside from that no - higher DPS = higher TPS.
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andenthal View Post
    Taking away AE abilities, there are only a handful of abilities that have innate threat modifiers - and most of them are tiny.
    Innate threat acounts for something like ~3% of all threat in a fight. (again discounting AE)

    DPS = TPS

    There will not be a situation where TankA does 10k DPS but does more threat than TankB that did 12k DPS. If the difference in DPS is less than 3%, then yes one tank may do more threat than another. Aside from that no - higher DPS = higher TPS.
    I basically agreed with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    You can effectively use dps as a measure as to how much threat any tank will generate. It's not exact, as it will not take into account the changing threat multipliers for each ability, but it can be used as a measure for general threat generation.
    I also went on to point out that you can use dps tables to gain insight as to which tanks may perform better/worse in various encounters. Let's face it, in a multi-mob encounter, a warrior's total dps might be lower than that of a paladin, or bear, or DK. Flip to the other side, a warrior's dps may be higher against a single target. THAT might influence me as to which tank I want performing certain roles.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  17. #37
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    It was mentioned by the OP that there was no AoE nerf to warriors damage. This isn't entirely true, Cleave is getting a 20% reduction in damage. Not sure how much this works out to, but it is not insignificant in terms of damage.

  18. #38
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    @ Leucifier

    Oops, excuse my ineptitude there. I think I misread a "can't" in your post that was not there.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    If you see a warrior heroic leap into a boss they are not doing it for any reason other that to say "Check me out I can jump!", because it sure doesn't have any benefit to it.
    Well I do. With Malowgar (or whatever he is spelled). I don't know if it can happen there, but the location reminds me about the giant in Ulduar. And charging in there was your death because you would just fall down. Well I could run in anyway, but Heroic Jump is free dmg with exact positioning. And I would not do it with most bosses. Sad to say, there are enough bosses that should not be charged in, too. I only have 20 rage to start with for them. That's just meh.


    But anyway: Yes, warriors have a lot of mobility. Sure. It's easy to run around for them and probably while tanking, too. But well, what does it help you as MT? There are very few situations where you want to cover a lot of space as the MT. Most times you just want to move the boss from one point to another. Most times wou will do this by moving slowly back- or sidewards. Because you just don't want to be hit in the back and because your melee should be able to hit the boss most of the time. A warrior does it the same way as the DK, as the druid, as the paladin. Only difference is, that the warrior is probably the only one who has to stop doing any dmg to the boss while doing so. Everybody else has at least some ranged abilities that can be used outside of melee range. And for moving the boss you have to get outside of melee range (at least for non Sindragosa like bugged bosses).

    Mobility may be much more important as OT. It may be helpfull for two things: collecting stuff and kiting stuff. Well warriors are imensely good at running away from mobs. But they are extremly bad at not getting hit while building threat on mobs. The only way to do it is with a well placed SW (or glyphed fear every 2m). A glyphed TC may be just enough to get their attention but does low threat. DKs cannot run faster or anything, but they can slow single mobs and the generating threat while not getting hit is easy for them. For paladins its a step more in the direction of easy threat and harder running away. I'm not sure about bears. They can use cat to get away from something, can apply stuff on raged and can use roots at range, but I'm not sure how helpfull it is compared to everybody else.

    So what is more usefull for the raid, if something has to be kitet? A tank who can run away good but has problems to get and hold the aggro, or a tank who can get and hold the aggro fine, but cannot run away as easily? Nobody can help the first tank, but many classes can help the second tank, there are many slows and priests have a pull-the-tank-around ability, now.

    Warrior tanks got the mighty leap as their ultimate ability. But it was more or less an unasked for thing. Most of us would be glad to have any reliable ranged ability on a CD less of 30s that does more than a bullet.

    So: Warrior mobility HAS its costs. If you cannot reach anything outside of melee range you NEED mobility. And it falls short in many situations.

    Yes, I love to play my warrior, and I like the mobility suff. But I have played other tanks. And it's laughable how easy their solution to the situations are, that I solve on my warrior with my mobility. It's quite hard to use all the mobility stuff well. It's more than "press one button and be there" in most cases. You have 4 abilitis and you have to select a target for each of them and 3 different kinds of targets, enemies, friends and spot on floor.
    Last edited by Katzazi; 01-14-2011 at 07:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krays View Post
    Honestly guys although that stateofdps place is nice for dps classes, dont pay it too much stock for tanks. Tank classes do similar amount of dps at the end of the day, with only a 1k discrepancy between lowest and highest at high end raid level.

    The reason why you see warriors so high on that is cause of the simple fact warriors are the defacto tank MT in alot of these high end guilds and probably gear up faster, you probably have alot of lower geared paladin tanks tanking in the high end raid guild alt raids, who end up giving the paladin average dps lower, as in my experience paladin do more threat than warriors, even though warrior may do slightly more dps.
    first off, read the damn first post, all of it...This is about the tank situation in raid content only. The tank dps is pretty uneven when you compare DKs to warriors and Bears.
    Also adjust the parses for the top 40 of each class and compare it on graph form across each fight. I'm pretty sure at this point in the content that 40 bears/paladins/warriors/dks will be full 359 by now.

    Hit capping is a matter of preference or simply not having decent and reliable interrupters. Expertise on the other hand until soft capped is actually a very good stat, and makes Aoe tanking(when we do) alot easier, aswell as initial aggro which also as mentiened in this threat is rather clunky.

    I would also like some form of data on tank incoming damage and average TPS.

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