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Thread: Protection Warrior Primer (4.0.3)

  1. #1

    Protection Warrior Primer (4.0.3)

    Prot 4.0.3 Primer

    This FAQ is to provide answers to some of the more commonly seen Protection Warrior questions in the forums. It's not by any means an end all, nor is it a step by step instructional. I've written this really just to help answer some of the more basic questions people have as well ( and I think much more important ) provide info on their classes abilities and usages.

    A huge thank you to Kazeyonoma for input, guidance and direction on making this FAQ accurate and user friendly.

    Please let me know of any errors or issues and I'd be happy to address. ( I'm still doing some cleanup of it )

    Sections

    1 – Talent Tree

    2 – Glyphs

    3 – Stats

    4 – How Do I Hit Stuff ?


    Talent Tree


    Primary Spec - 2/3/36 - AoE Toolset

    Prot Tree Breakdown

    For this tree we’re providing a breakout of each talent and some detail on why it’s the bee’s knees.

    Incite – We’re still using Heroic Strike. Mostly at 50%/60% or greater rage to dump.

    Toughness – At 3/3, you get 10% armor. You can’t go wrong here.

    Blood And Thunder – For AoE, this helps. An example is Lockmaw in Lost City. DoT him up, and when the add’s come in, 1 clap and I’ve spread it to all his buddies. Easy AoE.

    This talent is what is considered a “ filler “. It’s not required, but really more dependent on your play style. As it’s mechanic allows the main target to bleed, as well as spread rend, it’s a AoE tool that can be useful.

    Shield Specilization – Well, you are holding one , right ? 15 Rage or 60 Rage is nice to have, but don’t rely on it.

    Shield Mastery - It took a little convincing, but this is well worth it. Reducing all those cooldowns are huge. Shield block’s 30 second reduction is great, PLUS teach yourself to use Spell Reflection ( lots of people don’t ).

    Hold the Line – Required. You will parry. You will need the 10% crit block.

    Gag Order – Silence … One of many short timed CC’s. Good for trash pulls.

    Last Stand – It’s the OH S**T button. Healer silenced ? Standing in the Fire ? Hit Last Stand and you may just live to fight another day.

    Concussion Blow – A great utility some people seem to overlook. Currently it does about the same threat as Shockwave ( just less damage ), but it also will stun your target. That’s a huge plus . But it can be dodged or parried, while Shockwave can’t .

    Bastion Of Defense – Defense rating is gone. This is the de-facto tank talent. This will put you at the uncritability threshold. A must have.

    Warbringer – For me , it just add’s more tools to my bag. Intervene, Charge and Intercept have their place. Use them.

    Improved Revenge – Currently it’s doing great amounts of damage, BUT, be aware you can break CC if you’re not aware of target positions. Use it wisely.

    Devasate – Stacks sunders. Huge. Across the board DPS increase for all party members.

    Thunderstruck – T/Clap will stack 3 times a 10% increase when you shockwave. Seeing as Shockwave is one of our bread and butter abilities, this is a great one.

    But, it too is considered a “ filler “ talent and really depends on your play style. Some prefer to work Rend into their rotation. Others already are used to the Clap and Shockwave method.

    Vigilance – Refreshes taunt when the marked person is hit ( the overzealous DPS ). If it’s going to happen, and it does, I might as well have a fresh taunt ready. Secondly, as an OT, it’s allowing you to stack vengeance very quickly as well as maintain it.

    Heavy Repercussions – Shield Block will be used. Might as well get the extra dmg.

    Safeguard - Well, since we're leaving one point " on the table " I'd say put it here and and learn to use Intervene ! It is a great tool to save someone's bacon, but it does require you learning to use it. What i mean is if you're not used to it, you'll need to keep track of other aggro more.

    Sword and Board – This is old school. It does nothing but increase your DPS / TPS, plus it allows for your Shield Slam ability to be refreshed. And on top of that, Shield Slam will cost nothing. It’s what we call a win win scenario.

    So here we are showing you 1 specific spec with includes both Blood and Thunder as well as Thunderstruck. This provides a large amount of AoE threat as we're using Rend, spreading it, using Shockwave and using the positives of the spec'd abilites.

    Since we have one leftover point, the best usage is Safeguard. It's really the lesser of all evils. It also forces you to use Intervene.

    Prot Tree Items We Don’t Take

    Impending Victory – Losing a point somewhere for a 5% regain which may or may not be available ( and won’t be in a single “ enemy “ boss fight ) isn’t worth it.

    Arms and Fury Tree Items We DO Take

    Field Dressing – 6% help makes your healer love you long time. It’s too good to pass up. Has to be 2/2

    Blood Craze – You’re getting hit anyways, and healers will love you long time. I think the jury is out on this one as I and others have not seen the numbers to back it up yet. Yet….



    Secondary Spec - 2/6/33 - Piercing Howl

    Here we have 6 points in Fury to get us Piercing Howl. We lose both Safeguard as well as one of the AoE tools we have ( Blood and Thunder or Thunderstruck ).

    Arms and Fury Tree Items We DO Take For the Piercing Howl Spec

    Field Dressing – 6% help makes your healer love you long time. It’s too good to pass up. Has to be 2/2

    Blood Craze – You’re getting hit anyways, and healers will love you long time. I think the jury is out on this one as I and others have not seen the numbers to back it up yet. Yet….

    Piercing Howl - As Fury, I love this talent. As mobs away from me ( or to me, since they just don't know I'm swinging two axes ! ) this helps control movement by slowing them for 6 seconds. During Wrath, this was a key to helping control the val'kyr on the Lich King, and now in Grim Batol on Eurdax's add's.

    Cruelty – 10% crit chance on Shield Slam. I look at it and realize that this really accents Sword and Board nicely. This however, is a “ filler “ talent. We need it to get Piercing Howl



    Either spec is quite good, and they support different styles of play.

    This is only my feeling, but the first spec is more for a 5 man dungeon runner since I'm going to have both Blood and Thunder as well as Thunderstruck. Good tools for a 5 man ( pug ) where dps may not slow down and you'll need AoE tricks.

    The second spec feels more like a raid spec. I love Piercing Howl, and boss adds ( like whelps or flower spawns ) make it a invaluable tool. It's up to you.


    Glyphs

    Prime – Devastate – Since it’s part of our main toolset, we increase it here

    Prime – Revenge – Since it’s part of our main toolset, we increase it here

    Prime - Shield Slam – We do use it all the time as we have Sword and Board


    Major – Shockwave – Reduces the timer by 3 seconds

    Major – Thunderclap – Larger radius for hits

    Major –Cleave – Now you’re cleaving an additional mob


    Minor – Beserker Rage – 5 rage. Might as well

    Minor – Intimidating Shout – Another Oh S**T, when mobs get unruly; fear them.

    Minor – Demo Shout – Good all around way to reduce inbound damage ( and help heals )

    Optional Minor – Battle or Command Shout - This really only helps the other members of the group. Our main reason for hitting either is for the on demand rage. Is it selfish, yes.





    Stats

    Hit and Expertise…… ?

    Prot warriors can get away with low Hit and Exp because while we love big crits , we can live without them. Our TPS is good enough now that we can have a mix of average white and yellow hits, generate threat and as the fight progresses, we stack vengeance ( and Attack Power ) which helps us scale.

    Currently, there is no exact guide or roadmap for what percentages your Hit and Expertise should be. For myself, I currently have .94 Hit and 11 Expertise. Do I see misses/dodges/parries… Yes … But, with threat being what it is, a good rotation and proper use of Omen and the Taunt talent I’m not worried. ( Overzealous DPS at the start of the fight are again learning to let the tank build aggro ).

    Point being, don’t reforge for Hit or Exp if you will be losing dodge/parry/mastery.

    Now since we lost defense, what’s the deal ?

    Bastion of Defense provides you with 6% uncritability. By electing the talent point, reach the uncrittable threshold immediately.

    I prefer not to use this analogy, but think of it as the 3.3.x “ Defense Cap of 540 “. That number was the target where tanks were unable to take a inbound crit hit and be massacred. In essence lots of people ( including myself ) didn’t understand other than “ get to 540 “.

    You no longer need to get to a number, with Bastion of Defense you’re ready to get punched in the face.

    Plate is heavy …. What about Armor ?

    What about it ? The more the better. Thanks to Plate Specialization, we get a 5% STAM increase. Nice.

    As for Armor, the more the better. Higher the armor, the greater the predicted decreased damage from an inbound attack.

    What it really means is you will take damage in a somewhat level pattern, which will greatly help your assigned healer know what heals to throw next. That gives them an easier task in balancing their mana ( and not going OOM )

    Stam or Mastery ?

    It’s a slippery balance. Overall stamina is great, because we have a higher HP, and it’s the only defense against spell damage (plate isn’t going to help when you’re hit with Mind Flay )

    But Mastery is a tricky mistress. She’s good. She helps allow us to mitigate inbound hits. And gear has lots of it. Trinkets have lots of it. Trinkets even allow us to get tons of it on demand.

    Since Dodge and Parry are intertwined with diminishing returns, reforging hit/crit or anything else to dodge and or parry isn’t worth it.

    The ticket it seems now, is go for mastery ( adding to your block % and reducing the damage on an inbound hit ) but the key is finding the right balance between STAM and Mastery. There’s no magic number. Yet.

    30%-70%-75%-77.4% What's with all the numbers ?!?!?!

    Well, there are other threads that can help here with this, but the short answer is when you combine Dodge+Parry+Block, an ideal % of the combined is 77.4%. Think of it this way. I have 13.4% Dodge. I have 14.0% Parry and I have 50.0% Block rating from my skills plus Mastery ( mastery increases block ). Total is 77.4%.

    So at 77.4% i'm still not getting 100% avoidance. BUT, hit shield block for an additional 25% and you've just hit the magic 102.4% number.

    How Do I Hit Stuff ?

    Hard. Fast. And repeatedly until we have it’s undivided attention.

    So, we have a mob of 4 in front of us. Let’s take lost city’s roaming pack of man-birds. In an ideal world, the hunter would trap one, the mage would block one and the rouge would sap one, leaving us one mob to polish off at a time.

    But what about 5-6 mobs like Grim Batol’s clusters that have a caster and a few others. Let’s talk AoE.

    Wartotem has a kick butt spreadsheet that can help with some of the nitty-gritty details and math to make you super-mega-op. But let’s leave that alone for now.

    Regardless if you like it or not, you should be marking one with a skull. That way you know what mob is going to get hit hardest, and it teaches some control ( as well as shows who the less intelligent people are when the kill the non-marked ) .

    I can’t teach CC. You have to know the mobs in front of you, know the abilities of your party members and direct them in what to CC. As the tank, you’re the group leader. I’d expect you to know that.

    Here’s what I do –

    0 – I guess ( or look at omen ) as to which member is going to draw aggro and set vigilance on them. If I don’t need it, great. But if I do, it’s done.

    1 – Mark target(s) as needed, then pop either a battle or challenging shout for rage

    2 – Pick a caster, and charge

    2 – Once I am in mid-run, I select a second target and Heroic throw

    3 – Caster is knocked out, my second target is on me and I should be in the middle of this pack. I begin to turn around, face them AWAY from the DPS. Many times when I pug I see tanks who don’t set the mobs up for optimal DPS.

    4 – Around this time I’ll toss in a thunderclap to collect any stragglers

    5 – Shockwave which should stun them

    6 –I pick a target and REND it ( or you can keep working up the Thunderstruck talent ).

    7 – At this point it becomes more situational. Cleave, Devastate, Shield Slam ( if SaB proc’s ) Revenge ( if proc’d ) If the DPS isn’t interrupting a channel I can interrupt, I can pop a caster with Concussion Blow and stun them, I can war stop if things are getting aggro to other dps, I can Shout for my AoE taunt if it’s really bad. Also, don’t forget charge is back up, as well as intervene, so if the ranged is being attacked I can help them. Also, if rage is high, a heroic strike or 50 can help.

    I don’t specify it above, but you should try and work Demo Shout in. Every little bit helps.

    The point I’m making is other than the initial collection of the mobs, there’s no REAL rotation. The proper use of your tools and knowing your class talents is key.

    Typically, that’s how I handle trash or a boss plus his add’s ( think plants in the 4 Winds fight ).

    But what about a single target ?

    Well, we lose some of the tools like cleave and thunderclap, but we gain some heavier tools. Below is what I think is a very valid single target priority.

    The KEY to this, again , is not “ hitting button X and time x.x “ but learning what each ability does, how it generates threat, and how using this ability NOW will affect what happens in the next few seconds.

    Single Target threat priority system

    1) Shield Slam + Shield Block

    2) Shockwave

    3) Shield Slam

    4) Revenge

    5) 1st devastate of 6 second cd (while the above are all on cd)

    6) concussion blow

    7) 2nd devastate of 6 second cd (while the above are all on cd)

    HS or Cleave while at 60+ rage or so throughout the above rotation (they are not on the gcd, but have a 3 second internal cd)

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by nserafini View Post

    Safeguard - Well, since we're leaving one point " on the table " I'd say put it here and and learn to use Intervene ! It is a great tool to save someone's bacon, but it does require you learning to use it. What i mean is if you're not used to it, you'll need to keep track of other aggro more.

    Since we have one leftover point, the best usage is Safeguard. It's really the lesser of all evils. It also forces you to use Intervene.
    Isn't this just another wasted point? How often do you really use intervene unless your in a 5man?

    I'm not sure I agree with either of your two spec's, but I guess thats completely up for debate.

    Well, there are other threads that can help here with this, but the short answer is when you combine Dodge+Parry+Block, an ideal % of the combined is 77.4%. Think of it this way. I have 13.4% Dodge. I have 14.0% Parry and I have 50.0% Block rating from my skills plus Mastery ( mastery increases block ). Total is 77.4%.

    So at 77.4% i'm still not getting 100% avoidance. BUT, hit shield block for an additional 25% and you've just hit the magic 102.4% number.
    Don't forget about miss.

    Also... I may be completely wrong on this, but the spec I like to use is the following. I dont really like the Thunderstruck talent as I only thunderclap to keep up debuff, so not very often. I don't use shockwave, unless there are adds. I guess its just my play style.
    mine.JPG

    Just one last thing I thought I would mention

    Minor – Beserker Rage – 5 rage. Might as well

    Minor – Intimidating Shout – Another Oh S**T, when mobs get unruly; fear them.

    Minor – Demo Shout – Good all around way to reduce inbound damage ( and help heals )

    Optional Minor – Battle or Command Shout - This really only helps the other members of the group. Our main reason for hitting either is for the on demand rage. Is it selfish, yes.
    I find that instead of berserker rage, I swap between CS and BS depending on the group make up. If we are lacking one or the other, I swap to that minor glyph. Yes, we refresh it pretty often... but there are many times where raid members are out of range when its refreshed and this helps keep it up on everyone.
    Last edited by SquishyTheTank; 01-07-2011 at 10:50 AM.

  3. #3
    If you don't like intervene, you would have the option for Piercing Howl.

    As for not agreeing with the spec's, I understand. What would you do different ?

    I think for " newer " tanks having both BaT and Thunderstruck helps provide more AoE tools. Adding points to War Academy is not worth it now, and more so once 4.0.6 is public ( if the WA reductions are included )

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by nserafini View Post
    I think for " newer " tanks having both BaT and Thunderstruck helps provide more AoE tools. Adding points to War Academy is not worth it now, and more so once 4.0.6 is public ( if the WA reductions are included )
    Yeah... if whats on the PTR does go live... I will probably drop War academy. Until then, I like it lol.

    I guess that the main difference is that I completely skip over all the AOE talents. I haven't had any issues holding aoe threat without them, so really see no need.

    EDIT: Also, I think its a great guide, and can help a lot of people. Thanks for all the effort!

  5. #5
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    thunderstruck helps with cleave, thunderclap, and shockwave damage as well. as for not using shockwave unless there's adds, you're doing it wrong, shockwave has the highest priority in our threat/damage list outside of a shield block+SS with Heavy Repurcissions spec'd. If you're not using SW on cooldown while single tanking, you're missing out on a core ability. boosting it's damage, even if you don't try to stack it, is ideal. in 5 mans, it's just extra gravy to be able to front load a pack of mobs by keeping thunderstruck up from previous pulls and firing off a 30% boosted shockwave for guaranteed aggro on all mobs, combined with cleave and tclap (which again, are boosted by this talent).

    I agree though, add in the 5% default miss into the avoidance + block section.

    Safeguard is probably MORE used in raids than in 5 mans, and is MORE useful there too, but again it's about what you're specific raid composition, strategy, and playstyle that will determine the last few filler points. outside of 2/3/31 the remaining 5 points can essentially go wherever you want, be it war academy in the next patch, cruelty into piercing howl, bnt AND thunderstruck, impending victory or safeguard.

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    I'll probably end up moving this guide and Satorri's guide into the Critical Guide forum since this forum is more for discussion of the theorycraft and not for guides. Thanks for the hard work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
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    It's clear and concise. Everything in layman's terms. There are days when this site really shines. Thank you, friend!

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    specing incite for aoe tanking specs????
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by praetoria View Post
    specing incite for aoe tanking specs????
    I try to make it clear that it's the lesser of an evil. Also, now that you have it you'll actually use it.

    Meaning later down the line it's not something new to learn.

  10. #10
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    CB does the same damage as SW, and double the threat. (this is what I was referencing in the other thread, I don't think this is well known yet).

    Gag Order (and silences in general) - is not a CC. It does the same thing Shield Bash/Pummel do, only from range.

    The following is probably just personal preference;

    Safegaurd is fairly situational, where talents such as Blood and Thunder or Thunderstruck are not. Safeguard can be used in many fights to be sure, but the way you described it, overhypes it I think. I think I might be the biggest advocate of the "BnT and Thunderstruck are single target DPS increases too!" - group. They do provide a single target DPS gain. They are pretty minor compared to other options, but it is a single target gain - not just for AE.

    I see a spec for Piercing Howl (situational/trash talent), but no mention of Deep Wounds?

    I also disagree with the priority system.
    SS is always first, regardless of Shield Block.
    SS - > Rev - > Dev -> CB/SW -- as far as a very basic priority.
    If you have BnT, Rend refreshes go just after Rev. As above, CB does more threat, but SW does more damage, between those two, prioritze which ever you need more of.

    Edit: Glyph of Demo Shout does not reduce damage taken - it only increases the duration of the debuff, making it more efficient, and increasing your DPS/threat (fewer GCDs used to refresh Demo) - and possibly getting it on mobs that otherwise would not have (increased range).
    Last edited by Andenthal; 01-07-2011 at 11:55 AM.
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    Regarding the piercing howl spec. BnT is really the way to go (conclave/maloriak/nef). You need to be able to put damage on your adds without getting hit. I know you are posting a general guide, but you really should drop two points out of Gag order or Incite for these. You need rolling threat while kiting.

    Especially on maloriak, without constant dps on those 9 adds, you're going to lose them to healing aggro. They take 90% less damage while running around - shockwave simply won't hold them. A piercing howl spec just seems so useless without BnT.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Booi View Post
    Regarding the piercing howl spec. BnT is really the way to go (conclave/maloriak/nef). You need to be able to put damage on your adds without getting hit. I know you are posting a general guide, but you really should drop two points out of Gag order or Incite for these. You need rolling threat while kiting.

    Especially on maloriak, without constant dps on those 9 adds, you're going to lose them to healing aggro. They take 90% less damage while running around - shockwave simply won't hold them. A piercing howl spec just seems so useless without BnT.
    Nothing stops you from removing 2 points from thunderstruck and putting it into Blood And Thunder. I could be wrong, but it fits the number of required talents to fill the tree.

    And that kind of was the point, if you need something else, they are fillers and can be moved around.

  13. #13
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    If you're suggesting a Piercing Howl Build, I'd take Blood and Thunder over Heavy Repercussions any day. Piercing Howl suggests and AoE/Kiting build, and having Rend ticking on all mobs will be far more valuable than dropping the equivalent of 2 extra shield slams per 30 seconds, imo. Plus, it means you can more safely save shield block as a more defensively oriented cooldown and still get the extra damage from the two talent points.
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    Nice guide,
    Its clear that everyone has his own way of playing.
    Only thing i dont agree with is Impending Victory, healers are loving me for this because with some boss fights they are getting oom. Still gearing up i think.
    It has saved me and the group allot of times. It sometimes heals for at least 50k. Dont know if i would still use is when the mana problems are gone.
    Im tanking Aoe atm like i did in TBC. just hitting the tab some time to add some threat to the other mobs.
    The rotation what i use is : SS > Dev > Rev > and switch also between SW and CB like Andenthal does. And when everything is tikking i use HS with it. And ofcource keep the SB,TC en DS and Rend up.
    I think everyone should play the way they do, just experiment with it.
    But nice topic, for new folks it can help allot.

  15. #15
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    i switched from a 2/6/33 build with BnT in it to 5/5/31 with war academy and saw no change in aoe threat. i have noticed if it's a 3 pack or less it's actually more threat than the bnt build due to glyphed cleave. with larger packs (6+) i lost some dps due to not having rend rolling on all the targets but still manage to hold aggro fine. as long as i keep tclap and shockwave on cd for aoe pulls i don't even notice the missing threat from rend.

    also, gag order is more of a 5 man talent imo since it's handy for pulling caster mobs but shouldn't need the extra interrupt for raids.

    i agree with andenthal about the demo shout glyph. not having to refresh it every ~25-30 seconds is very convenient and can demo shout larger groups of mobs.
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    I find I mostly use TClap for the debuff and in most trash groups there is a clear focus target(marked with a skull) so I only have to keep aggro against the healer on the other mobs. TClap is durn expensive. And I prefer to keep Reflect up at any time(15 rage is actually quite a bit). On trash I like to use SW as a defensive CD in case I'm in way over my head. But the post-pull SW+TClap is a nobrainer. This buys me time for a nice Demo Shout which in my opinion a warrior should use religiously.

    While I'm not a fan of using Shield Block as a threat increase we do keep it up as long as possible. So talenting for it is a better choice than BnT or Thunderstruck. I still have all three because they are fun.

    While I like the idea of Safeguard I find little use for it on heroic trash. Most heroic bosses either have avoidable damage or stuff I would think Safeguard won't do you no good. But it could be nice for a second tank spec for specific encounters.

    Given the choice I prefer War Academy over Incite. But that may just be me.

    Blood Craze is stupidly good. I find myself sitting at under 75% health a lot so this is not very likely to go straight into overheal. And it really adds up. It also helps when soloing tons of mobs. I can't think of any other talent outside the def tree apart from Field Dressing that's as good.

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  17. #17
    Since we do not have a Cataclysm "Prot Warrior Guide" yet, I would like to see this post sticky'd for the time being so it doesn't get lost in the forum. From my post: http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...-In-The-Making where I asked about a tanking guide for us warriors, I can see this is the closest one we currently have. Nserafini's post is concise and to the point. Well written.

    nserafini has put in a lot of work here and from what he has posted along with all the comments that followed, have given us a lot of answers I believe us Warriors are looking for.

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    this forum isn't exactly swimming in new threads that it'll get flooded, the likelihood of a sticky in the critical guide forums is probably small, but that's because no guides are really stickied here, cuz they're all guides...

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    Thank you

    I just want to say thank you to everyone that has posted in this thread. I have been looking for a full break down on my prot tank since cat came out. i stoped playing about 9 months ago in wrath and was gravy gold for tanking there but once i loged in for cat i was back to lvl 1 with not a clue how to fix me lol. but now i have alot of info on my warrior and will soon become a tank everyone will want (i hope) lol. i really do love tanking its more fun then any other role i have tried so much to do and no down time really. plus i know the whowl run is relying on me and not just in a small part so again thank you so much!!! keep up the info pls

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    The way I look at Heavy Repercussions, Thunderstruck and Blood and Thunder is which provides the most utility. B&T gives the most utility out of the three because it allows you to do the most damage overall if you use it properly. Look at Maloriak for instance. Putting up Rend and clapping it to all the adds is the best way to keep aggro and gives you the most damage overall to them. Also, on Halfus the rend clapped to all the whelps and drakes gives you more damage done than extra thunderclap/shockwave damage given by Thunderstruck. These abilities that give +crit or +damage to abilities we use really are not necessary talents to take in this current environment.

    One could argue things like Safeguard, Piercing Howl, etc are also unnecessary but at the same time, abilities that give you a survival chance should outweigh those that simply provide more damage. In this current raid tier we should be looking at increasing survivability.

    Heavy Repercussions and Cruelty are both pretty poor in terms of threat and damage. I don't think most tanks pop shield block on cooldown. You tend to wait for when you need it. It's a defensive cooldown more than something you just blow whenever it's up. You're better off putting the points into Blood Craze for the odd time where it keeps you alive.

    Just one tank's opinion. Threat and consequently tank damage just doesn't seem to matter as much. At the very least the damage difference between a tank with Heavy Rep, Cruelty, etc and one without these talents isn't big enough to warrant take them over survival options.

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