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Thread: talent: deep wounds

  1. #21
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    Every expansion people find out the name of Kungen and decide to copy his spec, and his spec is *always* wrong from a theory crafting standpoint. This was true in TBC, it was true in LK, and it's true in Cataclysm.

    Maybe he knows something everyone else doesn't but I doubt it, more likely he's just proving that you don't need fully optimized spec/gear to down even progression content.

  2. #22
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    Or he's spec'ing based on their current encounters. SS is pretty useless for add kiting. Imagine life platform for HM conclave. He has piercing howl for his adds, and can intervene the zephyr tank for another 6 second CD there with the safeguard he picked up over HR. The buff on the boss lasts for 15 seconds, which means that the MT on life platform can typically cover 10 seconds with a personal CD, and having intervene covers the last 5. Yes, you can use externals from healers to cover the last half, but remember that they are typically rotating for the frost debuff, so it can be difficult to ensure you have one on your platform when needed. Heck, a 225% damage bonus buff... take all the externals that you can get.

    Same-style arguments for heroic Maloriak.

    This always comes up, and it gets so frustrating reading post after post about ideal specs. Look at what your guild is working on. Look at your role during that fight. Spec/glyph/consume accordingly.

  3. #23
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    exactly, while i'm not a fan of people who just dig up Kungen posts, and historically i'm not a Kungen fan, he does what he needs to for the fights they're working on. I got a lot of flack for spec'ing into imp demo and piercing howl and not getting anything past 5 in arms when we were working on HMs in ICC, but we were currently working on downing LDW and my guild opted to use the Premo strat of kiting the adds during phase 2, and well, we got it, because I did what Xav did, and because it didn't appear to be anyone else in my raid who was picking up imp demo in some way or form, so the other tanks and healers loved me in the raid. It's just about using what your specific raid comp needs. I had spec'd safeguard for much of ICC as well because our strategy for doing LK was built around our awesome DK tank who could hold aggro despite me jacking threat constantly, and it was easier on healers to just heal him and not have tank swaps for soul reapers.

    In either case, deep wounds, good talent, but not a necessary talent just like it wasn't one in wotlk, it's about your playstyle, your raid needs, and what you personally prefer, i won't ever get it unless for some reason they need my dps/threat to go up a few % to get a boss kill.

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  4. #24
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    Off the top of my head, I can't really think of any reason that Cruelty would be better than Heavy Repercussions unless you simply weren't pressing Shield Block. Cruelty is actually a pretty terrible threat talent if you aren't using it to get down the tree. (The only single-target threat talent worse than it is Improved Revenge.)

    As for Deep Wounds: it's still probably the best per-point threat talent you can get outside of core ones like Devastate/Sword and Board. The question is simply if you want the threat or not vs. some utility elsewhere. That's about it.

    If you want the DPS/Threat, there is absolutely nothing wrong with getting it. It's a very solid talent for that.

    Personally, I don't think it's worth it--but I wouldn't really think too much about it if someone did pick it.

    Threat talents pretty much get ranked in the following order for single-target:
    Devastate
    Sword and Board
    Heavy Repercussions (with at least moderate uptime)
    Bastion of Defense
    Deep Wounds
    Incite
    War Academy
    Hold the Line
    Shockwave
    Cruelty
    Improved Revenge

    (BnT is in the middle of the pack somewhere if you are both using Rend in your rotation and you are maintaining the Thunder Clap debuff.)
    Last edited by Kojiyama; 01-06-2011 at 05:39 PM.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    Off the top of my head, I can't really think of any reason that Cruelty would be better than Heavy Repercussions unless you simply weren't pressing Shield Block. Cruelty is actually a pretty terrible threat talent if you aren't using it to get down the tree. (The only single-target threat talent worse than it is Improved Revenge.)
    For the kite tank on maloriak HM you are saving SB for tanking the adds (they spawn in under 30 seconds) yet you still have ~15 seconds of dps on the boss before each dark phase and before the "first" blue/red phase. Cruelty gets you 10% SS damage for those, whereas HR offers nothing. Furthermore, while kiting those adds: if they swing into melee range i'll catch a revenge/thunderclap and a cleave. But often use shield block while kiting for mitigation. SSing while Shield Block is up is actually pretty rare in that encounter.

    Pretty unique... but the same holds true for the life platform in To4W.

    Still, for a couple of SS's it's kind of a "blah" situation. Not trying to come across as a 'know-it-all' here, just looking at the situations where it is the "right" decision.

  6. #26
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    Indeed, but if you are using SS so rarely anyway Cruelty is virtually useless anyhow. As I mentioned above, it's a pretty weak threat talent.

    If you aren't using it to get down to Tier 2 Fury, it's very skippable for other things. Plenty of other available threat talents (e.g. all of them!) that are better.
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  7. #27
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    With the new war academy from ptr (only +15% devastate damage) it's way more inattractive to get deep wounds and more likely to pick up thunderstruck/cruelty/bnt/safeguard/ph as dps/utility filling talents - at least for me.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by klausi View Post
    With the new war academy from ptr (only +15% devastate damage) it's way more inattractive to get deep wounds and more likely to pick up thunderstruck/cruelty/bnt/safeguard/ph as dps/utility filling talents - at least for me.
    I couldn't agree with this more, the most recent PTR patch notes can be found here:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1765534540

    "War Academy no longer buffs Heroic Strike or Cleave. It now buffs Mortal Strike, Raging Blow, Devastate, Victory Rush and Slam."

    As far as tanking goes, this talent will lose 15% damage buff to HS and Cleave and gains a 15% damage buff to Devastate, which is absolutely a net loss for this talent. That being said, any lingering hope I had for Deep Wounds has essentially passed with this change. The good news is I'll have 6 points to toss into survivability and utility talents!

  9. #29
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    Except that with the WA change, devastate will do more damage than revenge (even talented), which is just dumb.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nayre View Post
    Except that with the WA change, devastate will do more damage than revenge (even talented), which is just dumb.
    which, as shown in a different thread, removes Revenge from our rotation.

    Edit: quote from thread mentioned:


    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    Ran some numbers. A bit surprising results.

    All numbers were run with the 2-set Shield Slam bonus, which gives an advantage to Cruelty but is easy to get so I included it.

    If using Revenge in your rotation, War Academy is about 15% below Cruelty in terms of DPS per talent point. Cruelty is better, but only by a small margin. Deep Wounds still remains much better (almost double) per point than either one of them.

    However, if you drop Revenge from your rotation with War Academy and use Devastate instead, you gain a significant amount of TPS just from dropping Revenge (about the same value as both points in Hold the Line or all 3 points in Cruelty) but War Academy then adds more TPS per talent point than Hold the Line, Shockwave weaving, or Cruelty by about 10-20%.

    If you are single-target tanking and do not need the AoE splash from Improved Revenge, this then frees up two points in the primary Protection tree for use in utility talents or increased Rage flow from Shield Spec. Also, as War Academy buffs Victory Rush it makes Impending Victory much less of a TPS loss should you choose to take it in addition to more reliable as you are replacing Revenge with Devastate. (I don't love Impending Victory, but this route does make it better.)

    My personal feeling is that Revenge needs a serious buff, but with these changes it actually seems sensible to still maintain War Academy and drop Improved Revenge and Revenge from your rotation unless you are rage-starved. If you do this, War Academy is actually only about 10-15% worse than it was when it affected Heroic Strike even with a Heroic Strike frequency of 90%.

    Example numbers (assume that without Improved Revenge you don't use Revenge):
    (baseline), no Revenge: 8623 DPS
    2/2 Improved Revenge: 8693 DPS
    2/2 Improved Revenge, 2/2 Cruelty: 8893 DPS
    3/3 War Academy, 2/2 Improved Revenge: 8932 DPS
    3/3 War Academy: 8991 DPS
    3/3 War Academy, 2/2 Cruelty: 9191 DPS
    3/3 War Academy, 3/3 Deep Wounds: 9614 DPS
    3/3 War Academy, 3/3 Deep Wounds, 2/2 Cruelty: 9854 DPS
    Last edited by JollyWarrior; 01-09-2011 at 08:36 PM.
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