Fury - A few weeks in, thoughts on changes to improve gameplay

[Loganisis]

It probably wasn't the appropriate place to have the discussion, but Krenian and I had a brief discussion on what seems like an obscene amount of hit needed to function well for Fury.

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...511#post484511

Well, Krenian suggested I post the suggestion on the WOW Forums, which I did. But I think more of Tankspot patrons, so I was wondering what impressions you had about the suggestion Krenian and I discussed and the other 2 suggestions I offered.

I don't think I'll get in trouble for posting the link to the WoW Forums thread (I skimmed the rules and didn't see anything).

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1869557516#1

I'd be interesting is seeing if other Fury warriors think this would improve gameplay while not really affecting balancing after a rebalancing of baselines down slightly?

[Andenthal]

I read through the entirety of the post on the official forums, but I still don't think I'm fully understanding the problem.

Are you saying that Fury Warriors don't have enough rage to maintain their normal rotation, and thus are suffering DPS problems?

[Loganisis]

No. DPS isn't an issue. I really don't think there's a DPS issue with Fury unless you're in the top-end guilds, and then... idk anyway so it's not a big deal to me.

It's more the design of fury is to put rating points into indirect damage ratings (hit past 8% - I know there is some slight increase in damage from more landed white attacks) than direct damage ratings (essentially crit). This 'feels' awkward. It's the same for a lot of classes, but for casters, who need 2/3rds of the hit we need to be fully capped, there is a secondary benefit given to gearing towards resource management. Spirit, initially just a resource management ability, also gives hit if talented.

It also comes from the fact that DPS Rage is the only real RNG resource. Energy and mana are depletion management resources, runic power, holy power, seeds, etc, are user-controlled gain. Tanks' rage is based off of being swung at, so is fairly static.

Fury's rage is based on not-missing, and to not-miss you need 27% hit. While I don't think fury needs 27% hit to function, I would think the number is closer to 20% to not have really noticiable double-swing misses so you're looking at 2 GCDs without rage (assuming titan's grip and 3.5 or 3.8 swing timers) generation and be able to maintain the rotation with using HS with a fair bit of regularity.

That's a lot of background to say basically, given that hit after 8% is primarily a rage-generation, indirect damage, rating allocation, having some alternative way to gain some hit (expertise seemed like the most logical choice and capping it at something to augment gearing for hit correct) since past 8% it's mainly a resource management rating would seem to fall in line with other designs elsewhere and allow for alittle more feeling of building a warrior, not a rage accountant.

[Andenthal]

Maybe it's terminology or something, but still not getting it.

You say hit past 8% is not a direct increase in damage - though Warriors who gear past 8% hit do more damage than those that do not - indicating that Hit is indeed directly related to damage output.

Why is it bad that we need more of a particular stat than another class does?
What's stopping you from only getting +8% hit, then focusing on other stats?
As long as DPS numbers are consistent, what does changing the system gain us?

[Kallix]

I think I understand the point Loganisis is getting at - all other classes see hit rating as a stat to cap, not something they just want to get lots of like crit or haste. For most classes you get hit to a certain point, and then you can focus on 'pure' dps increasing stats. However, I don't see this as a flaw in Fury design, as I actually think that blurring the cap on hit makes Fury a more interesting spec to play. The RNG element of rage is something I like, it means you have to get as much DPS out of whatever your rage is doing that fight, rather than having to just sit and watch a bar either go down slowly or back up slowly. It makes gearing more interesting, because you can play around with how much hit is going to be enough for you. I can see why it might feel 'arkward' to have an indirect damage stat as the stat we want most (ignoring strength, of course), but it doesn't negatively impact us so its just something we have to deal with.

Despite that I do agree that the 'soft cap', as it were - the amount of hit you need to make Fury playable, is too high. I didn't start to feel like I was getting enough rage to actually DPS until I hit about 15-16% hit (the point where my DPS became competitive, too), and I didn't reach that until I'd already been doing heroics for some time. I really like your idea of having a talent that converts some expertise into hit, as it would buff up your hit at lower levels of gear, and would help on reaching the expertise cap quicker as well (because you wouldn't have to avoid expertise gear for hit gear).

[Loganisis]

Andenthal - it is probably an issue in the way I'm trying to explain it.

Up to 8% hit, you're making sure yellow attacks don't miss. From 8.01% - 27%, in terms of direct DPS you're making sure white attacks don't miss. That is a direct damage component, but it's secondary, melee damage has always been a good chunk of Fury DPS, but it's not the bread and butter.

From 8.01% - 27% the primary reason to get more hit is to make sure enough melee hits land that your rage is sufficient and consistent. This is more important than white damage. Thus, I see hit from 8.01% to 27% as being primarily resource management. There is a damage component, but it is clearly secondary.

There's a reason why in WotLK fury hit was 8% as the target, not 27%. The caps didn't change, the white damage potential (compartively) didn't really change (or much at least), but the need to hit to generate rage to use GCDs changed.

So when you look at Fury, 8.01% to 27% hit is now important primarily for resource management.

And as I stated before - I don't think 27% is the 'effective' target, I don't think you need that much hit to generate sufficient rage, but you do need more than 8%. The target is somewhere in between.

That segment of hit exists to get the job done more than directly affect DPS, thats why I call it an indirect DPS stat.


I understand that Blizz has made a clear effort to make resource management important, getting away from the WotLK model. I'm not arguing to change that, it is my opinion that there is a close parallel between casters' need for spirit and warriors need for hit. In the case of casters, there is a talent that turns spirit into hit in addition to it's primary function as a resource management rating. I think the same type of ability would make Fury a better class in terms of playability and gearing choice options as well.

Instead of hit past 8.01% being essentially "so I have the rage to use my GCDs", having a spirit-esque talent that would either:
A) give some some portion of expertise as hit as well, reducing the need for hit gearing allow the player to choose more widely when gemming/gearing/reforging into more direct damage stats/ratings (str, crit, mastery); or
B) give some portion of hit as crit or mastery as well.

In this way, the pressure to stack a primarily resource management is alliviated, which I think will help combat the feeling right now that Fury is all about pencil-necks counting rage (hit) rather than swinging large objects with metal.

It isn't about DPS - this is more of a feel/design desire rather than DPS. Making warrior gearing/gemming/reforging options slant more toward damage than rage management. This change wouldn't eliminate the need for rage management, there is still going to need to be hit added to make sure rage is sufficient, that isn't going to change, but this would help reduce the need to view hit as a primary choice when making gearing/gemming/reforging choices.

[Andenthal]

but the need to hit to generate rage to use GCDs changed.

This is what I was asking in my first post in this thread. You're saying that a Warrior with only 8% hit will be unable to use his GCD based abilities when they become ready - due to lack of rage. I'm not sure I agree with that.

It may be anecdoatal, but the only difference between 8% hit and 13% hit is the amount of Heroic Strikes I'm able to use in a given fight. My GCD rotation is still the same. When I was below 6.5% Expertise and 8% hit, yes my rotation didn't feel quite right, and my DPS was pretty low, but that's to be expected with those numbers.

[Loganisis]

You're lucky then. I must have made the RNG gods mad, because I have noticable chunks where I'm 3 or 4 GCDs before new rage is generate and shouts/beserker rage don't tide me over.

At 8% hit you're still sitting at 19% miss rate, which is a little less than one 25 swings will start a double miss string and MH misses, and just under one in 5 MH swings will miss, both of which cause problems with rage. Shouting will carry you through one or the other, but you're still going to be risking not having a shout or Beserker Rage available with little rage at periods of time.

I don't think Exp plays into it though - I went to a dummy and saw rage gain on both dodge and parry, it's just miss that won't generate rage I believe.