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Thread: So Which Guide is More Legit?

  1. #1
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    So Which Guide is More Legit?

    Since Tankspot hasn't made one yet I've been looking at other sources, but they vary...

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/981898783 from the WoW Forums

    http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t110315-...ction_warrior/

    Now naturally Elitist Jerks is probably more legit but, I'm wondering why Shockwave isn't part of the single target rotation due to it not being able to miss.

    BTW is Vigilance still good?

  2. #2
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    Elitist jerks is populated by a lot of pretentious idiots with no grasp on the realities of in-game content anymore. Their moderators are overbearing and self-important, their guides are generally the same way.
    If I had a dollar for everything that was wrong in the entire "Fireside Chat" threat with that mouth breather Suno.... I would have a lot of dollars.

    That being said, the protection warrior guide is actually decent. I would still vastly prefer tankspot for all tanking related needs however.

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    I don't dislike EJ as much as Edgewalker, but I do feel that it is woefully inadaquate when it comes to tanking theory. I used to post on EJ quite a lot, but migrated over to Tankspot simply due to the lack of a serious tanking community over there.

    EJ is pretty good when it comes to DPS classes (although it depends on the community for that class) but Tankspot will generally have far more accurate information on anything tanking-related.

    Shockwave should be used in a single-target rotation in the 3rd GCD following a Shield Slam (if still on cooldown) provided you are not using that GCD to refresh Thunder Clap, Demo Shout, or Rend--which all would have minor priority over Shockwave. Using Shockwave outside of that scenario is a TPS loss in most cases.

    I wrote some in-depth reasons for this in a thread about Sword and Board a while back (may be able to find it if you search) but generally the rotation should be: Shield Slam -> Revenge -> Devastate -> (Thunder Clap -> Demo Shout -> Rend -> Shockwave -> Devastate) with the rotation reseting to the start on any SnB proc.

    One of the biggest issues with this is that statistically you actually won't get a 3rd GCD following a Shield Slam all that often. You may not actually be able to keep Rend up 100% of the time or Shockwave on cooldown. This is generally fine, though, as missing SnB opportunities is very costly--even with Shield Slam being not as powerful as it was on beta.

    Vigilance is good for utility and awesome if you are an off-tank or off-DPS as it will let you maintain high levels of Vengeance for free.
    Last edited by Kojiyama; 12-28-2010 at 08:34 AM.
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    So Concussion Blow is pure utility now? And is just how useful is Vigilance? Is it only suited for raids where you have an OT tanking something as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    I don't dislike EJ as much as Edgewalker, but I do feel that it is woefully inadaquate when it comes to tanking theory.
    Don't get me wrong, EJ used to be great. I contributed quite a bit there and even had a section in the original tanking compendium. The intelligence of the tanking community just seems to have shifted here.

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    Keep in mind that though concussion blow/shockwave generate more threat than other 3rd slot abilities, they have an additional 2.0 threat modifier: meaning that you are giving up damage for threat that you don't need.

    The post on the general wow forums doesn't undergo the scrutiny that you see on elitistjerks. Yes, the prot warrior section on EJ's is not as deep as the other classes/specs - but if something is incorrect, it does get brought to light. A class thread's quality largely comes down to the individual maintaining the post.

    The post on the general warrior forums strikes me as a list of his individual preferences with little to no regard for what is actually best. He just isn't coming across as objective. Even the presentation makes it a struggle to get through; maintaining a list of ideas rather than facts.

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    So it sounds similar to early Wrath then, Shockwave and Conc Blow do more damage but less threat then Devastate...at this stage though I dont see any threat issues with how Vengeance is working. Not until the DPS gear up at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    I'm wondering why Shockwave isn't part of the single target rotation due to it not being able to miss.
    Shockwave is considered a ranged ability and falls under the same mechanics as many hunter shots. It can not be Dodged or Parried, but can certainly miss.

    My feelings regardnig EJ are just echos of what others have said. It really looks like their tanking section is written by DPSers who have a tank off spec and occasionally get to tank when someone calls in sick. Every so often someone will pop in with good info - if you want to read through the first 8 pages of garbo to get it.

    Regarding priorities;
    Building a rotation around Shield Slam, a rotation will look like this;

    Shield Slam
    GCD1
    GCD2
    GCD3
    Shield Slam

    You have 3 available GCDs between each SS use. In GCD1, you will always want to use Revenge or Devastate. Using anything else is a DPS loss when you factor in gains from SnB procs. GCD2 should be Revenge if it is available, otherwise Shockwave -> Devastate -> Rend*. GCD3 will basically be whatever is available (including maintaining buffs/debuffs obviously). Priority for this GCD should be Shockwave -> Revenge -> Rend* -> Devastate.

    Note: Rend* = maintaining Rend either manually or via Blood and Thunder. If spec'd into BnT Rend only needs to tick 4 times to surpass the damage of Devastate. Waiting for 5 ticks is optimal, but not if it interfers with the rotation, or falls off because you didn't want to refresh with 5 secs left.

    The only thing that changes is when Shield Block is up - use Revenge -> Devaste for GCDs 1 and 2, as getting an extra 50k Shield slam 1 GCD earlier beats anything.

    Keep in mind that though concussion blow/shockwave generate more threat than other 3rd slot abilities, they have an additional 2.0 threat modifier:
    I remember seeing posts about this, but was it ever confirmed or tested? I remember that it started because of an incorrect tooltip regarding SW's AP scaling - and players assumed it got the same treatment that CB did. If SW is getting a 2x threat mod, it's about the same as a HR Shield Slam in terms of threat. It just seems odd and unnecessary for an all ready very powerful ability.
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    hey, few questions regarding the post above:

    How many HS's are you able to work in between GCD's per rotation? im seeing huge variations in threat gen even loosing 1 HS. which brings me to my next question

    Inner rage: I seem to have the oppertunity to pop IR after just about every 3rd GCD. The result is a loss of 1 HS per rotation assuming revenge procs. Last ive heard, IR =fail for prot.. however that was some time ago. I was wondering if thats changed at all
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andenthal View Post
    Shockwave is considered a ranged ability and falls under the same mechanics as many hunter shots. It can not be Dodged or Parried, but can certainly miss.

    My feelings regardnig EJ are just echos of what others have said. It really looks like their tanking section is written by DPSers who have a tank off spec and occasionally get to tank when someone calls in sick. Every so often someone will pop in with good info - if you want to read through the first 8 pages of garbo to get it.

    Regarding priorities;
    Building a rotation around Shield Slam, a rotation will look like this;

    Shield Slam
    GCD1
    GCD2
    GCD3
    Shield Slam

    You have 3 available GCDs between each SS use. In GCD1, you will always want to use Revenge or Devastate. Using anything else is a DPS loss when you factor in gains from SnB procs. GCD2 should be Revenge if it is available, otherwise Shockwave -> Devastate -> Rend*. GCD3 will basically be whatever is available (including maintaining buffs/debuffs obviously). Priority for this GCD should be Shockwave -> Revenge -> Rend* -> Devastate.

    Note: Rend* = maintaining Rend either manually or via Blood and Thunder. If spec'd into BnT Rend only needs to tick 4 times to surpass the damage of Devastate. Waiting for 5 ticks is optimal, but not if it interfers with the rotation, or falls off because you didn't want to refresh with 5 secs left.

    The only thing that changes is when Shield Block is up - use Revenge -> Devaste for GCDs 1 and 2, as getting an extra 50k Shield slam 1 GCD earlier beats anything.


    I remember seeing posts about this, but was it ever confirmed or tested? I remember that it started because of an incorrect tooltip regarding SW's AP scaling - and players assumed it got the same treatment that CB did. If SW is getting a 2x threat mod, it's about the same as a HR Shield Slam in terms of threat. It just seems odd and unnecessary for an all ready very powerful ability.
    This is all well and good from a theoretical ideal standpoint, but I think this sort of depth is definitely way over the top in terms of detail. The difference between using the theoretical best rotation above and fudging it a bit, using a simple priority system probably isn't even noticeable.

    The above calculations make me think of DPS classes, where a lot of your effectiveness comes from knowing your rotation and executing it, never failing to use a global cooldown, and being aware of your surroundings. For a tank, your "rotation" should be in your muscle memory, in your proprioception. If you have to think about what ability to use next, you probably aren't as able to pay attention to what is happening around you. When I tank, my fingers move across the keyboard in a sequence that works based on audio stimuli as much as anything (did I hear sword and board proc? my fingers automatically hit shield slam), and thinking about whether I'm on GCD1, 2, or 3 would probably be counterproductive to my tanking.

    I'm not saying it's bad to do the math, but if we're talking about a guide for people, for tanking, I think it's much more important to understand the fundamentals of how to set up pulls, how to pull a group without breaking CC, how to move and position mobs without turning your back, how to ensure uptime on all significant debuffs/buffs, how to efficiently manage survival cooldowns, how to gear/gem/enchant, what situational tools to use in what situations, etc. Going into excruciating depth on the rotation probably hurts the new tank more than helps them because (especially if they're a former dps) they'll begin to think that being a good tank is about executing your rotation well, whereas in reality it's the smallest part of tanking well.
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  11. #11
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    I thought Andenthal's post was great. I also belive if the above is too much for someone to juggle along with positioning, placement, cd rotations,and not standing in ish, its probily in their best interest not to tank. however, everyone starts somwhere. yes, this is not "tanking 101". this is more like "tanking 301". but we have 101 guides too
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    Quote Originally Posted by praetoria View Post
    I thought Andenthal's post was great. I also belive if the above is too much for someone to juggle along with positioning, placement, cd rotations,and not standing in ish, its probily in their best interest not to tank. however, everyone starts somwhere. yes, this is not "tanking 101". this is more like "tanking 301". but we have 101 guides too
    What I'm trying to say here I think is that the vast majority of the time, your "highest tps rotation" means absolutely squat. I'll often save my shockwave and conc blow to help interrupt spellcasts, or when I think my healer needs a breather to pick back up my health bar, or because I know a pat is coming and I need shockwave ready to pick them up, or whatever. Even on boss fights, it's really just not significant to worry to such a degree over whether you're using shockwave on your 2nd or 3rd GCD between shield slams.

    I'm just afraid that people who read things like this will think that this is what makes a good tank, and the reality is it's maybe 1% of what makes a good tank.
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  13. #13
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    I'll echo what Reev's saying. The easiest example is that if you really want to max out t/dps, you use Shield Block on cooldown to maximize shield slam damage. But it's also a defensive cooldown so should be saved depending on the boss.

    Similarly we shouldn't use TC just because it'll do more t/dps than another devastate (and/or refresh rend for us), because if there's an add phase coming we'll need the AE threat.

    Not that anyone's advocating being so slavish to a rotation in this thread, but it's certainly worth remembering that a tank isn't dps and our rotations aren't just single target and aoe. It's more we have a game plan for each and every boss.

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    Regarding Inner Rage:

    Start with your normal rotation. If you constantly have excess rage, start hitting HS. If you are hitting HS every 3 secs, and still have excess rage, pop IR. IR should be the last button you push to get rid of extra rage, and the first one you stop pushing when your rage income lowers.

    -----------------------
    There are posts in this forum (and others) talking about the difference between the 2% armor Meta and the 1% block Meta. Most math on this is in the single digit or even sub 1% range in differences between them. If that is valid discussion than certainly dicussion about a 1 or 2% increase in DPS is just as valid.

    According to the community - sometimes it's the 1 or 2% that makes the difference. That's why Armsman was a "bad" enchant. That's why we were using TBC shield enchants, instead of the WotLK ones. They were litterally .05% better than the alternative, but if someone was using the wrong one, we (as a collective) told them the "right" way to go - the way that made them .05% more survivable.

    I don't think perfecting the rotation is any less important than knowing which talents are good or bad, or knowing which gems to put in your sockets. The vast majority of time, hitting Devastate instead of Shockwave isn't going to change the outcome of a fight. But then again, neither is your choice of Meta gem, or whether any individual socket has Stamina or Mastery in it - or any single other arbitrary definition of what it is to be a tank.

    The muscle memory is there because we've been doing the same rotatation since Janurary of 2006. That doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement, and room to unlearn that memory.

    Also - for what it's worth the differences in rotation become even more pronounced with more gear - say T12 or maybe T13, while the differences in other topic (Meta, Mastery, etc) start to mean less in later gear sets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    I'm just afraid that people who read things like this will think that this is what makes a good tank, and the reality is it's maybe 1% of what makes a good tank.
    My thoughts echo yours regarding the Meta gem, Expertise/Hit, and "how much Stamina/HP do I need?" discussions floating around. But all-in-all they are good discussion if you understand the class. Just sometimes not worded very well for newbie tanks.
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    Also, I agree with the AE tanking versus single target idea.
    It just becomes more convoluted when you try to put an entire encounter's worth of mechanics into 1 "rotation".

    Shield Slam
    Revenge
    Are mobs about to spawn? If yes -> Devastate If No -> TC
    Is a phase transition about to occur? If no - Shockwave If yes -> Devastate

    You have to assume the player understands encounter mechanics and how to act/react to them.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andenthal View Post
    Regarding Inner Rage:

    Start with your normal rotation. If you constantly have excess rage, start hitting HS. If you are hitting HS every 3 secs, and still have excess rage, pop IR. IR should be the last button you push to get rid of extra rage, and the first one you stop pushing when your rage income lowers.

    -----------------------
    There are posts in this forum (and others) talking about the difference between the 2% armor Meta and the 1% block Meta. Most math on this is in the single digit or even sub 1% range in differences between them. If that is valid discussion than certainly dicussion about a 1 or 2% increase in DPS is just as valid.

    According to the community - sometimes it's the 1 or 2% that makes the difference. That's why Armsman was a "bad" enchant. That's why we were using TBC shield enchants, instead of the WotLK ones. They were litterally .05% better than the alternative, but if someone was using the wrong one, we (as a collective) told them the "right" way to go - the way that made them .05% more survivable.

    I don't think perfecting the rotation is any less important than knowing which talents are good or bad, or knowing which gems to put in your sockets. The vast majority of time, hitting Devastate instead of Shockwave isn't going to change the outcome of a fight. But then again, neither is your choice of Meta gem, or whether any individual socket has Stamina or Mastery in it - or any single other arbitrary definition of what it is to be a tank.

    The muscle memory is there because we've been doing the same rotatation since Janurary of 2006. That doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement, and room to unlearn that memory.

    Also - for what it's worth the differences in rotation become even more pronounced with more gear - say T12 or maybe T13, while the differences in other topic (Meta, Mastery, etc) start to mean less in later gear sets.



    My thoughts echo yours regarding the Meta gem, Expertise/Hit, and "how much Stamina/HP do I need?" discussions floating around. But all-in-all they are good discussion if you understand the class. Just sometimes not worded very well for newbie tanks.
    I agree that it's good to have these conversations. It's interesting, and sometimes we learn things we didn't expect that change the way we tank for the better. I think your post was a good one, Andenthal, as is your response to me.

    That said, I think it's important that when we have these conversations, we frame them in the context of a conversation, and not a "guide" as the thread subject suggests. Guides are intended for people who are new to tanking, and should cover things that will make them good tanks. If we say it's a guide, then concentrate them on the 1% of tanking which is the highest optimization of the single target threat rotation, I just think it's a disservice to newer players. Maybe I'm just being too picky, but I've seen soooo many players who take everything they read on a place like Tankspot as gospel, and the thing that will make them a good tank. If we're going to write a "guide" for these players, it should be something that offers them guidance, not something that nitpicks their rotation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    So it sounds similar to early Wrath then, Shockwave and Conc Blow do more damage but less threat then Devastate...at this stage though I dont see any threat issues with how Vengeance is working. Not until the DPS gear up at least.
    Shockwave does more threat than Devastate as well, it's just stronger. Devastate doesn't have bonus threat anymore.

    I haven't seen any evidence that Shockwave does double threat, though. Especially now that it's 75% AP again.
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    With EJ I find it depends on what class you get "good" info for. I find the stuff for DKs and Paladins to be pretty good. But a huge lack of easy to find info for Rogues, Mages, Hunters, out of the stuff I have looked at so far.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    Shockwave does more threat than Devastate as well, it's just stronger. Devastate doesn't have bonus threat anymore.

    I haven't seen any evidence that Shockwave does double threat, though. Especially now that it's 75% AP again.
    When did this go through?

  20. #20
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    It never didn't do through

    Shockwave never had its AP coefficient reduced on live - it was just something they tested on Beta, but was reverted pretty quick.
    There was a tooltip error when 4.0.3a went live - which I think is where the confusion stems from.
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