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Thread: DPS and you - A guide

  1. #21
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    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1577522261

    Slipped to the bottom of the second page. Man, WoW users are wankers sometimes. Complaints about 59710239471029347 different things but a decent guide? Psh, whatevs.

    Erk.

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  2. #22
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    Thanks, a shame that not many people responded.

  3. #23
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    One thing that I don't think you mentioned (I was reading fairly quickly so I might have skipped it) is the concept of playing for the group, not your self. What I mean by this is being able to do things like maintain sunders, or a demo shout or managing any mechanic that needs to be dealt with by a person, that wasn't specifically assigned even if it means a DPS loss. Healer mana as mentioned is incredibly important and any time you can make healing easier in some way, you should be doing it.

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  4. #24
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    I did talk about the group thing but I didn't mention the mechanics of your class keeping your buffs. It is something that should be looked at but I was moreso looking at the idea of basic grouping and not dying by standing in the giant flaming ball of fire.

    But what TGM says is a great point: Look at the buffs that your class does. Something you may want to look at is making sure that all the necessary buffs that will allow you to survive are up. Some buffs aren't not 'as' necessary as others but if you have something that could facilitate your job without sacrificing too much of your dps, then by all means do.

    Any damage reducing ability that makes your healer love you for using less mana on the tank will surely be useful. Just be mindful when doing this that your DPS doesn't suffer greatly; a good way is to practice outside of combat just like practicing your CC and incorporating your skills in your rotation. I know I have to work on the times I am actually dealing with a global cooldown that I do not really know what to do; I normally Heroic Strike to do more damage, but sometimes it would be better to just Demoralize Shout most of the mobs so the damage is reduced.

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  5. #25
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    Given that this a guide aimed at DPS who may have got into bad habits I'd add this point:

    In the lower game, a lot of DPS became very reliant on AOE effects, which tended to produce very large numbers with very little effort, and which matched up nicely with tanks, who also tended to pull big. Blizzard has changed AOE mechanics on some classes now to make them less desirable. Not only is AOE a big mana drain, but AOE also costs even more mana because it may make other mana-returning abilities unavailable. So it is now virtually impossible in a fight of any length to depend on AOE.

    There is, however, another reason other than mana efficiency to target single enemies. Focused fire gives your tanks more mitigation and your healers more mana, because it is better for both tanks and healers if they are dealing with a group of five, then four, then three, then two, then one, then zero. If the DPS all AOE, then you are dealing with a group of five that may be doing damage continually until they all suddenly die. So the moral of this is: going for the biggest numbers possible as a dps is not always the best approach. It is nearly always better to kill one thing than to wound many things.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sordel View Post
    Given that this a guide aimed at DPS who may have got into bad habits I'd add this point:

    In the lower game, a lot of DPS became very reliant on AOE effects, which tended to produce very large numbers with very little effort, and which matched up nicely with tanks, who also tended to pull big. Blizzard has changed AOE mechanics on some classes now to make them less desirable. Not only is AOE a big mana drain, but AOE also costs even more mana because it may make other mana-returning abilities unavailable. So it is now virtually impossible in a fight of any length to depend on AOE.

    There is, however, another reason other than mana efficiency to target single enemies. Focused fire gives your tanks more mitigation and your healers more mana, because it is better for both tanks and healers if they are dealing with a group of five, then four, then three, then two, then one, then zero. If the DPS all AOE, then you are dealing with a group of five that may be doing damage continually until they all suddenly die. So the moral of this is: going for the biggest numbers possible as a dps is not always the best approach. It is nearly always better to kill one thing than to wound many things.
    Also, I might be seeing these things wrong, but in my recent experience, it seems people are doing higher single target dps than AoE dps now. AoE DPS is pretty much only meant to kill large groups of very low HP mobs, since they die quickly and single target would take longer with all the target switching. But on any targets with more than a few hit points, I think it actually may put out lower numbers now than single target (aside from tanks and such who essentially get "free" chaining effects).
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  7. #27
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    Arms Warriors definitely can squeeze out more dps however while aoe'ing (though not recommended and because of their non-threat modifiers, my guild tanks and I have been finding dps warriors to actually be one of the more annoying classes to run 5 mans with) because of cleave mechanics, sweeping strikes, and bladestorm.

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  8. #28
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    I think that the sort of player who would benefit from this guide may well see a drop in overall dps by switching from aoe to single-target dps. Single-target "rotations" (which, of course, aren't that rotational any more) are pretty hard to pull off properly without 1) research and 2) a lot of practice. (And I speak as someone still getting used to the druid eclipse cycle or finding the switch-point between a spriest's DoT cycle and Mind Spike.) My intention was to encourage dpses to stick with single-target dps even if they find it a lot harder to look good on Recount without chain-casting aoe.

  9. #29
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    Good guide. What interests me is how tanks operate once healers can operate through full pulls without any cc, and without going oom.
    From what I have seen tanks deal significantly more damage when Vengeance fully stacks and they can use the full extent of their aoe abilities which gives them pretty impressive numbers.

  10. #30
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    I play a feral druid myself, haven't gotten around to actually leveling/gearing up another tanking classes but as a base of personal experience i've tanked with all of the classes in wrath but haven't gotten around to actually level up my alts with the annoying profession grinds that i still have in front of me(3x 85lvl atm).

    Regardless, in terms of heroics ( since at least for now CC is absolutely obsolete in raiding environment ) the amount of mobs i can tank in a single pull depends on a few different things, the largest part of course is the gear.

    In theory there are only 2 roles who's gear really matters on this case, the healer and the tank. It's rather straightforward, the better gear the tank has the more hits he can take, the better avoidance he has, the better threat (and thus dps) output he has. For healer the gear matter's quite alot, but in some cases it's more towards what class(spec if priest) they are as well ( it is very much easier for a paladin healer to keep a tank (or group) up through heavy damage than say a priest, in current live patch).

    The other aspect that can and will make you able to do more larger pull is your own experience / knowledge of said instance. In large aspect there is always just a handful of packs in a said instance that deal the most damage to you. But in a lot of cases there are ways of completely nullifying said damage via 3 things.

    1. Stuns = bash / hoj / cs / kidney / charge etc.
    2. Interrupts = every dps class has one now, and so do most tank specs aswell(paladins only behind on live patch atm (?))
    3. Focus Fire

    There is without expection, always some mob that you can do one of the 3 things above on, be it the plaguebearers in LCoT, Seer's in GB(tbh not sure of the top of my head what was the nasty critter in there atm), or packs with healers like in ToT / VP. The "quickest" way of handling said packs, is always knowing beforehand when you'll be there, and saving your dps/survability cooldowns for them.

    As an example, in my case i have barskin(-20% dmg taken), dodge on use trinket, survival instict (shieldwall), frenzied regeneration (laststand +/ small heal or with glyph more healing taken which i change around alot). Then for DPS i have berserk which turns my Mangle to a cleave = a +30k dps (depends alot on the pack) 'hammer it away'- skill. Which i cycle through depending on the pack im on, or the efficiency that my healer has.

    All in all, currently i can rush through any instance atm without any sort of CC if i want to. In my eyes, the CC concept is there for people with lesser gear. It serves as a gap on after you ding 85 and get to 329lvl range that makes you able to queue for heroics. Which is the time when you want to use every CC in your groups arsenal, to make sure your instance clearing goes smoothly. But once you actually gear yourself up and reach enough gear, CC really isn't mandatory anymore if you choose so.

    Sorry if this explanation is too much offtopic.

  11. #31
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    Now, to the DPS aspect of it all.

    One major thing that changed in the expansion, that really impacted the instance clearing is the actual DPS numbers. As a general rule, depending on the class and spec, you could just go in press 1 button and boast around on how awesome you are with your big numbers.

    In terms of the numbers today, in most cases it's no longer beneficial to spam complete aoe when you do a pull with more than 3 mobs anymore. But depending on the class aswell, it most often isn't require for you do just single target DPS either. The other term of damage dealing which was to some extent shoved to the AOE camp back in the day.

    Cleaving, the type of damage when you are doing damage on one target but you are the same time doing splash damage to other mobs in the close distance. This is the major reason why all tanks are so high on the damage meters atm, but it's very subjective in terms of DPS classes since most don't really have this option as of late. Warriors do have this option, and atm when they get past the gimped state that is 'freshly dinged 85' they are a very large opponent on the threat meters on larger pulls. Retribution paladins, might the only second candidate to this, on the top of my head i can't really think of any other class that has other benefits through their base skills.

    Which is pretty sums it up that if you want to do some insane hc grind, stack up on fury warriors + retadins. Feral druid to tank it all and paladin healer. Class stacking ftw.

  12. #32
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    I am so upset this information had to be posted.


    a few tips, If your bottom dps, your doing it wrong. Unless your in a top 75 guild, theres a very good chance that there is someone in your raid not doing it right

    If you want to actually dps proper? Its more then just learning a few rotations and being able to pull them off on the current raid encounters. Get professions that are an optimal boost, I myself took leatherworking/jc, God knows how easy it is to take a DK alt and level professions on it.

    Dont skimp out on enchants(I say that but i dont have peerless qq im saving up :< ). Stay active on theory crafting, im willing to bet the rest of the gold i need for peerless that at least 1/5 of your 25 or 1/3 of your 10 man is running on aged information.

    If you want to be a legit dps, you need to put in as much effort as a tank or healer, I've done all three roles, in very successful guilds throughout expansions, if anyone says dps is easy then they be doing it wrong.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by tweaked View Post
    I am so upset this information had to be posted.
    I'm curious: Why?

    There are tons of people who are relatively new to the game or who have honestly forgotten/forget that our roles are more than they were. It is as much the fault of the player as it is the fault of the previous expansion being so newbie friendly and allowing people to live through mistakes.

    Cataclysm is a whole new beast that allows you to realize that they aren't kidding. And thus this information to allow people to brush things off and remind all of us on how to do it. Even the best of us would go and forget things. Nothing to be upset about, it just needs to be reminded and this is what it is for: A friendly reminder.

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  14. #34
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    Re: DPS and you - A guide

    I think this could help some people. Hell, even the veteran dps out there should read about managing threat. I'm sick of everyone trying to top the recount list without concern for survival, and so are a lot of healers out there.

  15. #35
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    Its upsetting from a player who has played at a higher level. If someone cant figure out these things on their own, odds are they are the same player that thinks fillling out a 15 min guild application is "too much work" Or looking at theorycrafting is for newbs because they cant figure it out on their own.


    While your at it, why dont you tell them to keep their eyes open while driving.


    I guess what im trying to say, is new player tips like this belong in a forum more orientated towards new players. If someones looking at these forums and threads, Im sure they understand that "fire is bad" and "defensive cooldowns belong on your bars even as a dps/healer"

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tweaked View Post
    I guess what im trying to say, is new player tips like this belong in a forum more orientated towards new players. If someones looking at these forums and threads, Im sure they understand that "fire is bad" and "defensive cooldowns belong on your bars even as a dps/healer"
    There are 133 members currently signed into TankSpot. There are 3,247 guests.

    You are operating under the assumption that only those that participate in these read these forums read these forums. The audiance is a lot larger than you think. And not only do discussions like this help people directly, but also indirectly. Even if you yourself don't need to be told standing in fire is bad, you can also use discussions like this as a reference when telling others who do not.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by tweaked View Post
    Its upsetting from a player who has played at a higher level. If someone cant figure out these things on their own, odds are they are the same player that thinks fillling out a 15 min guild application is "too much work" Or looking at theorycrafting is for newbs because they cant figure it out on their own.


    While your at it, why dont you tell them to keep their eyes open while driving.


    I guess what im trying to say, is new player tips like this belong in a forum more orientated towards new players. If someones looking at these forums and threads, Im sure they understand that "fire is bad" and "defensive cooldowns belong on your bars even as a dps/healer"
    I feel like you are slighted towards the fact that I posted this guide to help people out and that to you, it makes no sense to be in a forum that in all regards, you believe everyone knows about this.

    When in fact, as Quinafoi states, there are many users out there that are actually not registered for the site, have access to the DPS forums, and as such, browse the forum. Furthermore, this is a DPS guide for DPSers. The logic you are using that this shouldn't be in this forum because people in here should know the information is based solely on your opinion and not on solid facts.

    Fact: DPS, no matter what level of skill, die in certain situations that they could have avoided.
    Fact: No matter the raid, you still have to get back into the route of learning your class after every expansion. Why do you think raids and top tier level guilds keep wiping over and over? It's to learn what to do and what not to do. Part of that is knowing when is good to do DPS, and when it's good to survive.
    Fact: Wrath of the Lich king, was by all standards a very forgiving expansion that did not punish people as hard as Cataclysm has so far. You can see it in the fact that unlike Wrath, Cataclysm healers are running out of mana and threat is more of an issue. These were near non issues in Wrath.

    So yes, the guide may not be suited for all. Hell, if you don't do this, that means you're a great player. But to presume that everyone that comes to this forum should have an idea of what to do is basing it on stipulations and self-served bias.

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  18. #38
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    While not exactly a smooth read, I applaud Krenian for taking the time to start this thread. It is nebulus in its approach but fairly accurate nonetheless. Players who run with guildmates normally won't have the communication issues the author mentioned. That's not the case in PUGs. Those who don't have to PUG should thank their lucky stars and refrain from trampling the less fortunate underfoot.

    Whether running with guildies or PUG'ing there are still highlights related to battlefield awareness that strike true: stay out of the stuff, and focus less on posting high numbers and more on contributing to the ebb and flow of the fight. Cata forced teamwork to the fore. Krenian is correct with the allusion that LK raids getting nerfed into submission - combined with Wrath patches making it ridiculously easy to gear up - made Cata heroics & raids a bit overwhelming at times for the everyman.

    Patience and communication are a must in Cata. Players who scoff at mention of this should probably get out more. This is a good thread.
    Last edited by Gibilgashru; 03-09-2011 at 09:45 AM. Reason: grammar

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gibilgashru View Post
    While not exactly a smooth read, I applaud Krenian for taking the time to start this thread.
    Okie dokie, this is starting to bug me.

    I'm not actually calling you out or anything but this has been commented upon by a lot of people and I'm frankly very curious as to where people are having a hard time reading the information. Where is it that I am failing at my writing skills?

    Again, this is a genuine question that I would like you to point out so I can improve in the guide. Especially considering i'm planning on actually writing novels, I want to improve my writing skills and had this proofread by my English minor Fiancee so I wanna see what's going on here. (Granted she studied more literature than writing but still.)

    To be honest with all of you, I am more than willing to take comments about my writing skills. That's something in no way I would bash your heads in and say "NO YOU'RE WRONG!". Feel free to PM me with suggestions, comments and reviews that you think I should look at when writing things. I'm always open to critiques to improve myself.

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  20. #40
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    I'm old school with regard to the tank marking and calling the shots with everyone else following his/her lead. But ever since Patch 3.3 gave us Dungeonfinder, the argument for PUG players having to mark their own CC might be a valid one. At least initially if the tank is either unprepared or pretending to be a Zerg god who is better served marking fire hydrants.

    When CC is used, I prefer CC pulls both as DPS and as a tank: incapacitate the chosen targets first, then draw the rest away so the AoEers are free to unload without fear of breaking crowd control. The key to success is DPS cooling their jets. Not giving the tank time to position the remaining mobs out of AoE range from the CC'd targets before they open fire = fail.

    With a Survival Hunter just reaching 85, I am only now beginning to understand the nuances of where and how the toon fits in instances. I agree that switching targets to spread the aggro around is a smart practice, saving feign for emergencies. Oh yeah... and turning the pet's growl off helps the tank hold enough threat to kite mobs away from CC too.

    For those who have been playing a hunter since they were an embryo... the rest will likely bore you to tears. But for those of us who aren't there yet... I'm just trying to contribute (hopefully) some applicable pew pew.

    I start in Aspect of the Hawk and lead with Black Arrow to DoT and get my pet moving; followed by Ice trap (AoE) or Freeze trap (single target) to help proc Lock & Load:
    - If Lock & Load happens I fire Explosive Shot twice - with Rapid Fire and/or Serpent Sting in between to fill up the CD space.
    - If Lock & Load doesn't happen I'll either (a) hit Rapid Fire and setttle into a DoT + instant cast party mix with a trap thrown in, or (b) DoT up, launch a trap, then start looking for stray mobs who might benefit from a Concussion Shot or Wyvern Sting.

    I realize that Arcane Shot is part of the Lock & Load proc with Explosive Shot. But I choose to substitute a 2nd Explosive Shot in the L&L rotation (with Rapid Fire and/or Serpent Sting as spacers) in place of Arcane Shot because of Essence of the Viper's elemental damage bonus. Mastery actually means something to Survival Hunters.

    To regenerate focus while still DPSing:
    - If Serpent Sting is active, I hit Steady Shot followed by Cobra Shot.
    - If Serpent Sting isn't active, I hit Steady Shot plus Serpent Sting followed by Cobra Shot.

    Rinse and repeat to regen focus.

    A concern mentioned in the original post is DPSing while having to move about. If I have focus built up then it's a no brainer - I simply rattle off my favorite instant cast shots while strafing. But if focus is low, Steady Shot & Cobra Shot can't be used while moving in Aspect of the Pack because they aren't instant cast. In fact they have 1.63 second channeling cast times. That's an eternity in fights where mobs or bosses are surounding you with damage that must be egressed.

    Enter Aspect of the Fox, which allows StS & CoS to be fired while moving. Like the warrior stance dance, I find switching between Aspect of the Hawk and Aspect of the Fox a necessary evil in long fights where I can't remain stationary. I do what I can to remain in Aspect of the Hawk as much as possible. But when I need to regen focus on the run, Aspect of the Fox is a butt saver.
    Last edited by Cyclonite; 03-11-2011 at 04:10 PM. Reason: forgot paragraph spaces

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