as a weapon enchant?
Quick Q, did they removed Executioner?
Sorry no i meant as a debuff on the target, when your in the execute phase.
Unless i am mistaking it was put on you target up to 5 stacks.
I appreciate the time you've taken to write this and I understand it's out of date, but I wanted to challenge you on something I don't quite understand. In regards to Deep Wounds vs Incite, numbers are probably different TG vs SMF, so I'll stick to my field of expertise which is TG.
You're saying, I think generally, that the math *suggests* that Deep Wounds is greater than Incite. A test I did for two minutes Incite 3/3 vs Deep Wounds 3/3 came up with these results via Recount.
2 Minute intervals between them, no CD's, Landslide MH 359 and Hurricane OH 353, and a 16.88% hit chance
Spec: Deep Wounds 3/3 incite 2/3
HS #23 (times cast)
Damage: 159,030 11.6%
Deep Wounds #103
Damage: 127,555 9.3%
Then Incite 3/3
Spec: Deep Wounds 2/3 incite 3/3
HS #23 (times cast)
Damage: 262,633 16.1%
Deep Wounds #117
Damage: 129,627 7.9%
The use of HS on Battle trance, while I agree it should be used then, but to strictly follow that rule, I disagree with as Heroic strike is a very powerful ability worthy of prioritizing over RB, especially when Colossal Smash is on the target.
My point is, I don't see how Incite is inferior to Deep Wounds, maybe you addressed this in prior posts that I've missed. If you could clarify I would appreciate it. Honestly it's annoying to see warriors using 3/3 Deep wounds and having Deep Wounds within their top 3 DPS abilities because Heroic Strike does significantly more damage. As you see 16% damage vs 9%
Thanks for your answer.
Last edited by Lessonvale; 09-17-2011 at 05:30 AM.
Heroic strike is much less damage per rage than any of our other abilities. You're not properly counting raging blow I think, as you need to account for raging blow main and off hand not to mention with the tier 12 4 piece the addition of the proc. That 33% extra percentage to proc an the 100% crit heroic doesn't overtake the damage we gain from the extra damage on deep wounds which is a consistent ability. Heroic strike is just nothing more than a shear rage dump as again it dpr is lower than any of our other attacks and using it outside of battle trance/rage dump scenarios would be a bad idea and just lead to you missing out on your rotation.
Even if you prioritize Raging blow instead of Heroic strike, Heroic strike will still deal more damage than Deep Wounds unless you are neglecting Heroic Strike for solely Battle Trance.
This is isolated to my experience but, my raging blows critical strikes hit for about 16-20K when my heroic strikes critical strikes hit for 20-30K, I think Heroic Strike is fairly even with its DPR if you have 100% incite. I think you're under estimating the damage you gain because that 100% is significant amount of damage guaranteed.
Incite offers a 100% chance on critical strike with heroic strike to cause your next heroic strike to be a critical strike. The strategy I use is to BT > RB > Slam > wait for 80% rage follow it with a Colossal Smash, then Inner rage + Heroic strike x2 > Battle shout > HS > BT.
Also you're missing the secondary effect of Heroic strike which is 5% crit to the ability per point, which increases it's crit chance greater than any other warrior ability. Deep wounds takes the average weapon damage (from both weapons?) and deals that over 6 seconds.
I'm getting with the weapons posted above: about 445-446 per tick (2226=5 ticks over 6 seconds) deep wounds 2/3.
I don't know, it doesn't seem worth it. Maybe if I were sporting 359's x2, but even then I doubt it because Heroic strike's damage would be increased as well.
I don't know the maths to support it, but using SimulationCraft, Deep Wounds build has a 300-400dps increase over Incite build.
With my character in the deep wounds build
deep wounds is doing @1900dps and @7% of the dps
heroic strike is doing @2700dps and @10% of the dps
overall dps @ 26350
With my character in incite build
deep wounds is doing @1300dps and @5% of the dps
heroic strike is doing @2900dps and @11% of the dps
overall dps @ 25975
These results are rough averages of multiple sims using both builds. The differences will vary according to your gear. I suggest you try running it yourself to see what any differences for you may be.
Last edited by artie; 09-17-2011 at 05:08 PM. Reason: syntax
Again you are just looking at "shear raw damage" rather than actual damage per rage. I understand incite well but when we're discussing things in regards to incite over deep wounds, you seem to ignore the fact that deep wounds is basically additional damage you're dealing on any attack without the cost of rage.
Yes, you get an additional 5% crit and the chance at a crit heroic strike on your heroic strike but at the cost of 16% additional passive damage on any crit you do. Deep wounds is scaling off of the damage you do too just like all our attacks outside of execute do.
Here is the simpliest breakdown of DPR of our attacks
Sample output for DPR (second number under CS):
BT 100 129
RB 75 104
BT (bloodsurge) 78 107
Exec 58 80
HS (incite) 56 73
HS 35 47
WW 21 28
Cleave 22 29
WW x5 104 112
WW x4 83 91
WW x3 63 70
WW x2 42 49
Cleave x3 65 72
Cleave x2 43 51
Note even an incite guaranteed heroic strike isn't worth as much as a raging blow. Also I have deep concerns for your dps if during your CS, you're not getting all the Bloodthirsts and Raging Blows in there in favor of spending an entire gcd on a shout and then 2 heroic strikes.
When calculating raging blow, you need to calculate both the main and off hand damage as you get both for the one swing, now if you happen to be SMF your bloodsurged slam would take priority over raging blow but again you need to calculate your mh/oh damage not just the mh swing.
This all again goes back to the base rotation regardless. Heroic strike is basically simply a rage dump, if you're delaying or replacing other attacks for heroic strike, you're losing dps.
And with your discussion of getting 359 ilvl weapons I would imagine your gearing isn't quite there yet but raging blow becomes even better again with the 4 piece tier 12 due to the additional proc damage that comes with it. Please don't just get fooled by looking at raw damage rather than actual damage per rage.
Running simcraft with 3/3 deep wounds resulted in
Deep wounds 2397 dps and 7.7% of the dps
Heroic strike 3056 and 9.8% of the dps
31271 overall dps
Incite build resulted in
Deep wounds 1622 dps and 5.3% of the dps
Heroic strike 3239 dps and 10.6% of the dps
30451 overall dps
As you can see, it's a dps loss for me to spec more points into incite rather than deep wounds
Last edited by Ragebark; 09-18-2011 at 03:04 AM. Reason: Adding Simcraft Results
I think the expertise rating is more then 780 for getting 26 expertise now. I tried it and it was 25 so i have 788 now and have 26.
1 expertise = ~30.3 expertise rating.
So 26 expertise = 30.3*26 = 788 (rounded up, maybe 787 if you do it exact?) expertise rating
But a human with a mace/sword get 3 free, so 23*30.3 = 697 expertise rating.
So 788 is the upper limit for soft capping like you were saying, but it can vary how much actual rating anyone needs based on other factors.
An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer
Ok after reading some of the posts and using Landsouls spreadsheet I have managed to totally confused myself on which trinkets to use. I run SMF.
I do not have any heroic trinkets, my selection is the following:
I have tried all different kinds of combinations (always reforging to keep Exp at 26 and prioritizing Crit/Hit/Haste/Mastery).
I have the 4 piece bonus and for the majority 378 gear: Dinosm @ Tanaris - Game - World of Warcraft
After all kinds of combinations the best dps that shows on the spreadsheet is using:
Which makes no sense since everywhere I read Apparatus and even Dwyer's ranks higher.
HoR. LtS is the best combo for SMF for the trinkets you listed. If you were TG it would be HoR Essense.
Yesterday i ve made a test, first reforged my equipments to get 10 points of mastery, 5 min on dummy got 19k dps 5.8m damage. Then reforget to CRIT>HIT, 5min 18kdps and 5.2m damage. I think thats lot of diference.
First Test (Mastery)
more melee dmg (with less crit)
more dmg with raging blow
Second Test (CRIT)
less melee dmg (wiht more crit hits)
more dmg with Deep Wounds
I would like to share that experience, results maybe wrong due enrage atctivation.
Last edited by GasalZera; 09-23-2011 at 11:49 AM.
I ran simcraft with your profile with your current build, as well as with a mastery heavy reforge (10), and showed the two specs to be near even, but with hit heavy being slightly ahead.
As to your results, how many times did you run the dummy. I have run into this pratfall myself, and using dummies as solid experiment has the potential for folly. To be able to get a solid number through using a meter and dummies requires a LARGE amount of repetition. Human error and subconscious bias can very easily throw off a test of this nature without large amounts of repetition to give a good average. If you only ran on the dummy those two times you may want to run it again and again and see if your numbers are still that different.
If you have run those dummies a large number of times, and still have that much discrepancy, your results may reflect that you play with less rage more efficiently than with the large rage pool a high hit build can lead to.
For T11 stat importance was 8%>exp26>crit>hit==mastery>haste for TG. With this there came about using Hit heavy and Mastery heavy builds. The mastery heavy build is considered harder to play due to potential rage starve situations from lack of discipline.
The current mantra is hit 8%>exp26>crit>hit>mastery>haste.
Regardless, the difference in sim was so small that if you show personal gain you may want to continue this play with this sort of stat build.
There are a few other things that are odd. The high-mastery build had one more HS and 5 more Raging blows with all other ablities being the same. This honestly seems anonamlyous. The high hit build should have more rage and more GCD/HS usage.
103 main-hand melee swings (205 total divided by 2 to get the amount of time) and assuming 2.4 second swing timer (though flurry would reduce this further) puts you at just over 4 minutes per attempt?
If so, this is also going to slant mastery, as you would have just finished your second Deathwish.
TGM posted once that he usually uses 10 minutes on the dummy and then 3 times per build for a total of 3 10 minute tests to really gauage ability usage and try to smooth out anomolies.
Also, which buffs did you have? Melee haste will help a high hit build more than a high-mastery build, so if you don't have that, it will slant slightly towards mastery as well.
I'm not trying to rip the test apart. All attempts are useful - it's just there are so many more variables that impact production. I still have a few questions about the test you did.