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Thread: The Cataclysmic fury Warrior Guide

  1. #201
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    Okay so I need some help here. I am absolutely unconvinced after my own testing that mastery is always greater than stacking hit to high levels. Below I will be explaining what it is that I am seeing and why this is inconsistent with what all current theorycrafting has come up with. Understand that my point with this post is to try and understand the discrepancy I am seeing, and not to just try and argue that my way is better than some other way. Honestly, after doing alot of digging, it makes sense on a whole lot of levels that mastery is the superior stat over stacking hit for fury warriors. Im just not able to confirm it and I would like to know why.

    I performed 18 tests on a boss mob level target dummy. 9 tests were done with an emphasis on stacking hit to as high as I could with my gear. 9 tests were done with emphasis on stacking mastery as high as I could with my gear. The gearsets DID NOT change, only gems and reforging (mostly reforging).

    Now, I completely understand that a target dummy is not an accurate or even a good representation of actual warrior dps. The lack of raid buffs on me and lack of raid buffs on the boss are significant to the actual damage we do. My testing was merely an attempt to understand the theory that with the changes in 4.0.6, mastery is a better stat to stack on your gear than hit is beyond 8%. The argument is that with a greater amount of hit you are able to heroic strike more and your white swings will do more damage by missing less. With mastery, you maintain your rotation and continue to heroic strike when you have rage but your Raging Blow will hit harder all the time and your Deathwish will be up more often. The reason why I feel my testing is valid is because during a raid environment there is absolutely nothing that will increase your mastery level and cause you to do more damage from Raging Blow that wouldnt already otherwise be applied to a gearset that stacks hit. Conversely with these tests, there are several elements in a raid that can improve your hit further then current levels making testing it on a target dummy a less accurate representation than a raid environment. By this thinking, stacking hit should show itself to be lower by a significant margin than stacking mastery. This is not what I have seen from my testing.

    Below are my test result summaries. Please keep in mind that they are summaries of what I wrote down (on paper) and not combat log parses or specific numbers from each test. They are the averages that I concluded from the information I took down because I wasn't trying to go too far overboard:

    armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...zzinoth/simple
    spec: http://wowtal.com/#k=BeB4M2iT.aei.warrior.RlfZEK
    (note the spec is 2/3 incite, this is on purpose to compare gearing and not specs)

    Stacking Hit

    Stats with Hit (stats inlcude Battle Shout)
    7.83% Haste
    19.19% Hit
    19.87% crit
    8.96 Mastery Rating
    10493 Attack power

    Test Summary with Hit

    Each test ran for 7 minutes exactly from behind the target dummy. All cooldowns including Deathwish, Recklessness, and Colossus Smash were popped at the start of the fight and the third Deathwish was popped when Recklessness came off of cooldown to get maximum effect out of the ability.

    Priority rotation for hit stacking was as follows:
    Colossus Smash > Bloodthirst > Raging Blow > Slam Proc > Heroic Strike

    Understand that I used Heroic Strike very liberally without ever breaking this priority list. If I was able to Heroic strike and Bloodthirst and still have enough rage for Raging Blow, then I did it. A test was stopped if at any point in time I broke my priority list by rage starving myself and its results discarded for another attempt.

    Also know that with the new mechanics of Inner Rage I was able to pop this and occasionally successfully pull out an extra heroic strike when rage was permitting. This was saved for every other Colossus Smash or during Deathwish/Recklessness burn periods.

    Average Statistics across all 9 tests:
    Overall DPS: 15.2k

    Damage Done to target from abilities from largest to smallest: BT (28.6%) > Melee (23.5%) > Raging Blow Main Hand (12.6%) > Heroic Strike (11.1%) > Raging Blow Off Hand (8.0%) > Slam (6.8%) > Deep Wounds (6.6%) > Colossus Smash (2.9%)

    Number of Heroic Strikes: 68



    Stacking Mastery

    Stats with Mastery (stats inlcude Battle Shout)
    7.83% Haste
    11.19% Hit
    19.60% crit
    14.59 Mastery Rating
    10493 Attack power

    Test Summary with Mastery

    Each test ran for 7 minutes exactly from behind the target dummy. All cooldowns including Deathwish, Recklessness, and Colossus Smash were popped at the start of the fight and the third Deathwish was popped when Recklessness came off of cooldown to get maximum effect out of the ability.

    Priority rotation for mastery stacking was as follows:
    Colossus Smash > Bloodthirst > Raging Blow > Slam Proc > Heroic Strike

    For mastery, even though raging blow is a higher damage ability (and indeed the ability I am stacking to improve) it is still most efficient to use Bloodthirst first for the Battle Trance proc as well as the increased chance on Slam. Also note that if a slam was already up and BT came off cooldown, I stuck to the priority list and used BT instead of the slam. This is because BT does SIGNIFICANTLY more damage than slam and can proc the deadly calm. I did however attempt to use every slam I could.

    For mastery I also did not always save Battle Trance for a heroic strike and instead incorporated it into my rotation if I was low on rage to ensure that I would be able to complete my rotation at all times.

    Understand that I used Heroic Strike when I could without ever breaking this priority list. If I was able to Heroic strike and Bloodthirst and still have enough rage for Raging Blow, then I did it. A test was stopped if at any point in time I broke my priority list by rage starving myself and its results discarded for another attempt.

    Also know that with the new mechanics of Inner Rage I was able to pop this and occasionally successfully pull out an extra heroic strike when rage was permitting. This was saved for every other Colossus Smash or during Deathwish/Recklessness burn periods.

    Average Statistics across all 9 tests:
    Overall DPS: 14.4k

    Damage Done to target from abilities from largest to smallest: BT > Melee > Raging Blow Main Hand > Raging Blow Offand > Heroic Strike > Slam > Deep Wounds > Colossus Smash

    I do not have average % because I didnt think to write it down until I did my hit tests :-/ however there was significant difference in overall Raging Blow damage between hit and mastery. I dont have the %'s to say definitively but Raging blow did roughly 9% more overall damage with the mastery gear than the hit gear.

    Number of Heroic Strikes: 54



    Conclusion:

    With these tests under the guidelines I mentioned above there was almost 1k dps increase on average between stacking hit to my 19% level and stacking mastery. This is in opposition of the theorycraft model that is being accepted with 4.0.6. I understand that there is a possibility that the mastery superiority has more to do with its reliability in raids, its consistency across all types of mobs and fights, and that perhaps the mastery idea is based off certain gear minimums. I have been unable to find any minimums with reference to these two stats when compared side by side. The general assumption being that regardless of what you are doing, stacking mastery will improve your damage significantly over that of stacking hit to various levels. There is no mention anywhere that I have seen that says your mastery should be at X level before this becomes viable.

    Note that with these results, 1k dps does not come from the increased number of heroic strikes and more than likely comes from the increased amount of white swing damage. However I foolishly didn't collect my damage %'s and cannot confirm that at this time. I would like to believe that the top DPS parses in the world from WoL are reliable enough to know that Mastery > Hit with 4.0.6, but I am not seeing that for my gear level under this controlled environment. I also know (as should any fury warrior who has been playing for a while) that being unlucky in a fight can be the difference of about 5k+ dps from one attempt on a boss to another. This means that even if Landsoul has the world top DPS parse on some fight with mastery, he may have just had the stars align absolutely perfectly that one occasion. It is very hard to use that information definitively.

    Even still, I am not naive enough to think that going mastery isnt a good thing. It doesnt require nearly the skill or luck that stacking hit has with heroic strike, but I would like to be able to confirm if there is a point where the two specs cross and one becomes superior to another. Or if there is a situation where the truly max dps on a specific encounter can only be achieved by one spec over another because of some reason.

    I am hoping with this post that people will sit down and actually try out both ways of doing things. Trying to eliminate as many variables as possible and see if they come up with something consistent with my findings. Try raiding one week with mastery as your stat priority and another with hit stacked as high as you can. Help me by looking at the information I have included here and point out anything I could have done wrong. Or anything I could tweak to get a better more consistent test result. Ultimately I want to know FOR ABSOLUTELY SURE that hit stacking is an inferior way to play as a fury warrior with 4.0.6 regardless of gear level. If it isn't, then where does the gearset change and why?


    Thanks alot for any and all help you can contribute to this!


    Magnuss
    Last edited by Magnuss; 02-09-2011 at 09:09 PM.
    "If I'm doing a fight and I need more threat... I try harder. If I'm doing a fight and I need my taunts not to miss, then I wear hit." -Veneretio

  2. #202
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    so i checked out your gear and idk how u can get only 15k with all that hit and then only 14k with mastery stacked..maybe u have a lag issue or something. does sound low for your gear but thats just my opinion on that. the idea behind the new setup is to avoid using heroic strike since it does 20% less damage. when u stack mastery u need to go full in or dont bother. haste to mast or crit whichever you dont have on that piece of gear.

    hitstacking is basically obsolete atleast imo to an extent. before the patch i was there stacking to the ceiling with hit. the whole hit to 27% can be taken in many ways. there are many stats before it that you should focus on and this was true even with the last patch. that was when people had issues with rage and couldnt keep up the rotation.

    now its at the point where your rotation can go smoothly as low as 9% (from what i tried). your crits from your special attacks help out a great deal with rage. blizzard put an unreasonable number like 27% cap cause they knew it is impossible to get to. so they fixed us this patch and basically gave us the option to either stack hit or stack your other stats and add more hit when needed

    so far at 9% hit,20.26crit (before battleshout) and 15.54 mastery. im pulling numbers consistently over a fight that i never saw when stacking hit. but it is really to each his own on how and what to do with your character.
    Last edited by artiev; 02-09-2011 at 10:44 PM.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by artiev View Post
    so i checked out your gear and idk how u can get only 15k with all that hit and then only 14k with mastery stacked.. the idea behind the new setup is to avoid using heroic strike since it does 20% less damage. when u stack mastery u need to go full in or dont bother. haste to mast or crit whichever you dont have on that piece of gear.
    The number 15k itself is deceiving. It is not an accurate portrayal of my dps as a whole (i pull far more in any dungeon or raid under almost any circumstance) but the idea is comparing standstill rotation damage with no buffs or debuffs aside from battle shout when one variable is changed between the two gear sets. When I did dungeons earlier today I noticed the discrepancy in my damage with mastery crit gearset which is what has caused me to do this testing. By all current accounts, unless im missing something that someone can verify, i should not be doing more damage with hit than mastery and yet I am.
    Last edited by Magnuss; 02-09-2011 at 11:10 PM.
    "If I'm doing a fight and I need more threat... I try harder. If I'm doing a fight and I need my taunts not to miss, then I wear hit." -Veneretio

  4. #204
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    yea naturally in a raid you would pull more dps. but when u go into the whole mastery stack, u need to raise ur crit higher than what you did. u need crit at 20% with out battle shout. and mastery above 15. try that and then you will see a difference in the dps

  5. #205
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    Im adjusting my gear to attempt to reach those numbers of 20% crit without battleshout and 15+ mastery and I gotta say, those are not easy number to get. Granted i am not the best geared to any extent but this in itself is putting limits on stats that I have not heard before now and I definitely havent seen anything to verify those numbers. Still, I am going to get as close to those numbers as i can with the gear available to me and see if it is the tipping point im looking for.
    "If I'm doing a fight and I need more threat... I try harder. If I'm doing a fight and I need my taunts not to miss, then I wear hit." -Veneretio

  6. #206
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    Im new in dps, was always tanking but i got to raid group where dps is needed. I still got about 11k dps on boss target dummy. So i think i do anythink wrong. Using SMF.
    Starting with Heroc Throw to apply sunder - CS - BT - RB - BT- slam proc - BT - RB....
    HS when rage over 80, CS on cd.

    Here is my armory link: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...%C3%ADr/simple

    Can you help me, find where problem is? Thank you

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razzos View Post
    Im new in dps, was always tanking but i got to raid group where dps is needed. I still got about 11k dps on boss target dummy. So i think i do anythink wrong. Using SMF.
    Starting with Heroc Throw to apply sunder - CS - BT - RB - BT- slam proc - BT - RB....
    HS when rage over 80, CS on cd.

    Here is my armory link: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...%C3%ADr/simple

    Can you help me, find where problem is? Thank you
    do me a favor and make a thread in the HALP! forum.
    ill answer there. i dont want to hijack this thread.

  8. #208
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    the goal of low hit builds isn't specifically to stack mastery, it's to stack crit as much as possible, and then stack mastery when you can't reforge to crit. running with low hit builds is definitely more subject to player error and RNG from miss streaks. running with low amounts of hit requires more planning of ability usage especially when you need to do things like interrupting and/or AoEing, and if you make a mistake it's super easy to rage starve your self and miss your interrupt and consequently wipe your raid (trust me, I did it way too many times on halfus).

    Basically hit is the stat for beginners or people who are not as adept at their rage management, crit is for those who are very good at managing their rage.

    |TGM UI |Fury Warrior Guide | How To Use Landsoul's Spreadsheet| The Numbers Game |
    "I am an elitist; I will never accept mediocrity and I openly show no respect for stupidity"


  9. #209
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    ^^ i agree 100% crit before mastery... but it comes down to what stats you can reforge. i ended up with high mastery due to majority of gear having crit already.

  10. #210
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    So I got a couple of questions regarding the changes

    1) When is the ideal rage threshold for HS now?

    2) What is the new <20% rotation?

  11. #211
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    heroic strike should be used when rage is at 60 or higher.. sub 20% stays the same pretty much

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by artiev View Post
    heroic strike should be used when rage is at 60 or higher.. sub 20% stays the same pretty much
    Dunno if that's accurate...I think raging blow is more damage and dpr than execute is, especially once you have 5 executioner stacks.

  13. #213
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    any thoughts on using incite spec for SMF?

  14. #214
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    just for the ragedump purposes i use it.. execute it could go either way but with the low hit specs execute could burn off too much rage

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krenian View Post
    You're losing 10 strength for 20 hit, which hit still is a decent stat Casz. You're getting two increased instead of one.

    Instead of thinking you're getting 40 strength, think of it as losing 20 hit.
    Krenian you must be mind reading, I came to the same conclusion after thinking about it =)
    Last edited by Casz; 02-10-2011 at 01:32 PM.

  16. #216
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    I go with low hit and use HS when I "feel" I'm not going to rage starve (incoming damage, gimmick combat, etc.., always +60

    My Sub 20% rotation is:
    CS (on CD) > EXECUTE (x5) > RB > EXECUTE ...

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heimdär View Post
    I go with low hit and use HS when I "feel" I'm not going to rage starve (incoming damage, gimmick combat, etc.., always +60

    My Sub 20% rotation is:
    CS (on CD) > EXECUTE (x5) > RB > EXECUTE ...
    Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well. Obviously CS was always in the sub-20% rotation, so just adding in RB (which only costs 20 rage, whereas execute costs up to 30).

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bung View Post
    any thoughts on using incite spec for SMF?
    id think it would be pretty much mandatory... deep wounds is weapon damage based.. and 1 handers have crap for weapon damage. that and...

    RB damage will be lower for SMF because its based on weapon damage. HS isnt. id gather that HS damage will be on par with RB damage, if not more.. depending on your mastery of course.

    But thats not to say mastery will help you all that much either. remember that mastery increases RB's weapon damage. and even if you have a good amount of mastery.. its still only taking 230ish% of 841-1563+ap.. which is still crap. Where STR increases damage on every ability you have.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heimdär View Post
    My Sub 20% rotation is:
    CS (on CD) > EXECUTE (x5) > RB > EXECUTE ...
    Glad somebody else verified this for me. Thank you. This is what I've been using sub-20 and it just "felt" right, seeing some nice yellow numbers with this plan.

  20. #220
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    Also. Would it be worth it to discuss the value of 3/3 incite over 3/3 DW again?

    Because we dont want as much hit anymore, we wont be using HS as much. And the changes to recklessness will decrease the value of the talent anyways.

    Also. I think it would do the SMF users some good to re evaluate their ability and stat priorities in the guide when you get a chance. As they have changed a bit because of the patch. They arnt to far from TG.. but they are still different.

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