Is prot warrior threat/damage too high?

[Muffin Man]

To the dps reporting problems with warriors' initial threat, I'm wondering what the warriors your grouped with are doing. My normal pull rotation is: Pre-shout, Heroic Throw->Charge, (Shield Block) Shield Slam, Revenge, T-clap with a heroic strike thrown in there as soon as it lights up.

I have problems with all tanks initial threat on my arms warrior.

The weirdest case is my Feral friend who can pull 10k on Grand Vizier... but I can still pull off him on trash if I'm not careful.

I've found my biggest problem with tank threat is AoE not single target. If I ever cleave/sweeping strikes off the bat then I'm going to have aggro on the X, then on the Skull shortly after. Live and learn I guess.

Note - I learned long, long ago that opening with Deadly Calm was a guarantee to pull aggro no matter who I ran with.

[Katzazi]

[And whats with the girls and the women? Dont forget us female tanks.]

My bigest AoE problems are when others pull than me. Often enough shout is on CD and I have zero rage and mobs initially run to somebody else and then to the healer... And then there are those pulls where the casts overtake me while I'm charging.

But even with mindfull playing dds, the first few seconds as a warrior tank can be fishy. Because we don't start with full resources and we have to dedicate 5 early GCDs for debuffs (6 if you count rend). And we probably spend multiple GCDs on controling mobs instead of hitting them, but that's seldom a problem for me. However when dds have early crit streaks they now and again can pull off of me at the start. It's comparable to what happened in the first few seconds in other expensions. At least now we have a failsave taunt.

[Ghladum]

Kat - it's definitely best to avoid pulling until a Shout is available. Just hold off on running ahead to get ready for the next pull until your shout is ready, because people are eager to move on and will often initiate their CC assignment if the tank is standing near and looking ready, etc.

In Defensive Stance, doing a Battle Shout will produce ~160 threat, divided by the number of mobs. This is almost always enough for the first few seconds of a fight, while only yourself and party members who had CC'ing responsibilities are on the aggro table. Healers that just love to preemptively put a HoT on the tank do sometimes make it hard, because they can regenerate hundreds of mana and capture aggro, but most of them learn pretty quickly not to do that on pulls that will require a lead-in time.

Remember that we have an awesome 0 Rage ability called Heroic Leap that can actually be used as close as 8 yards away, with a 16-yard radius of effect. Perfect for close-range, low-Rage pull pickups if a Charge is not viable.... and finally, pick out a single mob that is centrally located to the mobs that you do not have aggro on, and zero in on landing a Melee swing on it, which should give you enough Rage to TClap. If they are not headed towards you, then forget the Rend -> TClap sequence for a moment until order is restored.

[Katzazi]

I was speaking less about a tank problem but of a group/coordination problem. I'm speaking about situations where it is supposed that they are not easily solved by one or two buttons of the tank.

Did you really never meet those mages/shamas (sometimes other classes) who just sheep/frog a target of the next group when the first group is done? You probably don't want to open them with a jump. But even if you would do so, the mobs may be to scatterd to collect them with the jump and charging one mob and taunting another may be better (at least it gives some rage so you probably can intervene the healer).

And there are those hunters who pull every second group through either a wrong going shot or an aggressive pet randomly while all the remaining CCs of the first group are opend by the d&d and pestilence of the dk.

Btw: one swing is not enough to give one 20 rage. It's enough to give you the rage for SW but it's definitly not 20. Anyway - I know how to collect mobs. But in a low rage situation it's hard to get aggro of all of them if your dds just do AoE dmg or focus differnt targets. You have to work to get the attantion from some while somebody else works to draw the attention from others.

[Leucifer]

A lot of the current issues are "group" problems and not necessarily tank problems. From what you're describing, that's what it sounds like. It was easy for people to get away with a lot of that stuff at the tail end of Wrath. Now we're paying the price for the laziness inherited from that. Myself and a couple others had talked at length about what we termed, lazy dps. Lazy in the sense that they were not fully mentally engaged and aware. It shone through mainly on certain fights in ICC where it was critical for dps to move or switch targets rapidly.

My suggestion:Tell the group what you need. Speak up. If someone gives you heartache over it and tells you to stop being a QQ tank, kick them, because honestly, they're not truly interested in finishing the dungeon anyway. YOU know how you function best as a tank and you're learning rapidly what you can and can't handle currently. If the group is sincerely interested in succeeding, they will adjust to make the encounter a win. Need a moment to set aggro and get vengeance up? Say it. Takes 10 seconds to explain that pre-fight and it takes minutes to recover post wipe.

Or, resort back to the old rule: You pull it, you tank it.

Is it nice? No. But, having a dps pulling another group while still currently engaged in combat with another group, they are initiating the wipe, not you!

On the flip side of this, do your homework. Look at an encounter and plot out how you want to tackle it.

Quick example: group has a warrior tank, DK dps (frost), hunter, mage, and shaman healer. Set of 4 mobs, 2 melee, 1 mage, 1 heals. I'd approach this by having the hunter set their frost trap on the healer, with the mage following up rapidly with a poly on the caster, and the shaman popping hex on the closest melee after that. Why? The hunter's cc is location dependent. If the mage poly's first, the healer will likely move making it more difficult for the hunter to set their trap. I'd make it clear to the DK at the start of the dungeon (and they should know this) that they shouldn't use DnD and if they have howling blast, make sure it's only used facing away from cc'ed mobs and after I am able to get a rend + thunderclap in to cement aggro. On the polymorph, I'd also have the mage run back towards me so that the mobs head my way. As the melee start charging in, the shaman should be able to slap hex on the closer mob, reducing the pull to a one on one for the start.

Is this challenging in a PUG? Yup! Unless you communicate clearly. It's definitely easier with a guild run or with people who play consistently together. The key is still communication. Those people who are willing to communicate and cooperate, they're playing to win. Those who aren't, you're better off without them. Even if they have blisteringly awesome dps.....they are a liability because they are not working with the group to accomplish the same goal. Oh, but what if they're really a really, really, really, good player (kinda Zoolander-esque there) and know the encounter? Answer: they are still fail because if they know something that will impact the group or will help the group succeed in an encounter, but don't share it, they are still not working towards the goal of successfully completing the encounter.

[Leucifer]

One tip....
As a warrior, consider hitting a thunderclap without rend if a cc is going to be slapped on a mob after the pull. It'll set some aggro on you without having to worry about unlocking that mob.

In use, it'd go like this:
Charge > Thunderclap > Mage / Shammy CC > back away, pulling other mobs away from the cc'ed mob > rend > thunderclap

I use a similar technique with my DK, kicking off a pull with a blood boil to get snap agg, backing away and letting one of the cc'ers slap the whammy on a mob, and then drop DnD to solidify things.

[Katzazi]

My suggestion:Tell the group what you need. Speak up. If someone gives you heartache over it and tells you to stop being a QQ tank, kick them, because honestly, they're not truly interested in finishing the dungeon anyway.

I'm doing the first part of this most of the time, but I don't kick people until they are really bad and insult all other without even listening to anything said in /p. Well the only bald people leave after one or two wipes or explanations what they should do, so I don't have to kick them for my own.

However the sad part for me is, that the same situations happen with guildmembers/friends. (Including important persons like raidleaders and stuff, some are just lazy in 5mans.) I cannot kick them. And while there was someone who left group and guild after I explained how to use his char in a heroic in very nice words, most just stay. And want to run with me again. While they improve more or less fast, the next ones reach 85 or have their alts ready or whatever. And the others start to get lazy or bored again or want to challenge me... (The last part probably comming from me being one of the few dedicated female tanks, so dont tell me that I should behave otherwise because nobody deares to challenge you, if you are male.)

[Timberton]

However the sad part for me is, that the same situations happen with guildmembers/friends.

I am (well, mostly "was") in the same situation as you. Steps I've taken to remedy this:

* Face pulls/running in front of the tank: let the offender die: "Lol, noob <class> running in front of the tank, getting him/her self killed>
* Pull next pack while still fighting current pack: "Everybody, thank <name> for the incoming wipe, he/she thinks the run can be sped up, it can't"
* Attacking mob at the same time as the tank, maybe a little faster: I'm more lenient to this one, but if I'm annoyed at some1 doing this constantly/repeatedly: "Stoopid <class> having aggro contest with tank,Congratz, you won!, here's your mob!, enjoy"
* Setting up a LoS pull (announcing it in chat, etc), some1 attacking mob prematurely: "You don't dare attack the mob before I hav it in position, now die please"

These are close to what actually happened in HC's in guild groups. Important is to follow them though, drill into their skull that you cannot be messed with. It's your way or the highway.
The tally is as follows (as I remember it from the top of my head):
- Got guild GM(mage) vote kicked out of 4/5 guild HC run for being a arse
- Said mage died on average 2 times per 4 heroics due to running ahead of tank and messing LoS pulls
- Guild rogue died once for messing LoS pull
- made 4 or 5 wipes because some guildy pulled another pack while still fighting old one
- Routinely letting dps tank their own mob if they do their single target rotations on mobs without skull icon. In contrast, skull mob is always glued to me. A quick chat with the healer and the dps who disobeys skull marking is taking a dirt nap (ressing is less mana than healing the dps yo!). Most guild dps who roll with me actually stop their dps if there isn't a skull up now.

because nobody deares to challenge you, if you are male

That's not true, gender has nothing to do with it. Dps will keep acting the same and think/hope they can get away with it. Because we are in the TANK's guild, he/she won't let us die/let us down, we've been thorough so much together. Well...news flash...

Edit2: Sometimes it is easier to take lead and controll a random PuG than a fresh un-drilled guild group, but inherent the PuG skill/gear variation still makes for unwanted results as times.

[Dank]

I'm no longer just above the priest in RECOUNT anymore .. weird ......

Atonement

[Abarta]

Speaking of communication...theres now a built-in voice chat with WoW (party chat), why aren't more people using this?

I read this intire thread, and honestly couldn't think of anything that could be useful [that hasn't already been said].

[Muffin Man]

Hasn't that always been in the game? I remember some version of it existing in TBC. Don't know why people don't use it though. I guess since it's limited to party/raid you can't use it to replace guild chat.

[Reyntrannin]

Actually, back in TBC, we were using it much like vent or our guild. While it won't link to guild chat for some reason, it did link to custom world chat channels. i'd assume it still does, but haven't continued using it since vent gives a superior quality voice communication.
That was always the big downside of the in-game chat. It's a very low quality sound channel, so it can still be quite difficult to hear and understand over it. Also, it doesn't play nice with vent, and since most people who have the harware to use it are already on vent, it can be difficult to get people to jump on game chat jsut for a PUG.

[Katzazi]

And there is one other advantage to a third party communication tool: If you have a crittical WoW error or a WoW disconnect you don't automatically drop out of your communication tool, all the time. In many cases it can make a big difference if you can announce your DC.

[Shiryu]

I have been having threat problems at the beginning of fights in some raid encounters. On bosses where I am tanking something that will not get touched for a minute, letting vengeance build, I have no issues.

I will give examples, on Concalve of Wind I usually start on Anshal along with most of our melee. For all the fights we do a count down so DPSers can pre-pot and time their CDs so they can be used twice during some fights etc, etc. Well it has been almost imposible to keep Anshal on me, they always ridding me on threat and asking for HoS, particularly my two fury warriors and feral druid.

There is a few more fights that are problematic that I decided to just not even MT anymore, I let our feral tank start, like Chimeron. It worked out for the best since he was getting owned on double attacks and I have survive them perfectly fine, but the whole threat issue is still very frustrating.

One last example where I couldn't MT because of the same innitial threat issue is on the Ascendant Council. I just haven't found a way to be able to tank the Elementium Monstrosity since we have to use blood lust asap.

On a typical raid encounter I do a five second count down before the pull, use my shout then charge and heroic throw. I might use Shield Block but always getting that 1st Shield Slam on the boss asap. From then on i just use Heroic Strike when rage allows it, Shield Slam every time it is available and devastate spam when SS is down.

Before the patch that just hit us, I was including shockwave, Concussion Blow and Revenge (not in that particular order) but decided to drop them and test out the new changes.

My vigilance is always on the other tank (the feral druid).

Here is a link to my profile, I have been considering sending mastery to the trash and get the dreaded expertise and hit. Haven't done it yet because it just seems to be a problem JUST at the start of fights.

Edit: forgot the link http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../shiryu/simple

[Kojiyama]

If you have Improved Revenge, your priority should be:
Shield Slam -> Revenge -> Devastate

Only think about using other abilities if you reach the 3rd GCD following a Shield Slam. This is the GCD where Sword and Board procs will not decrease the cooldown of Shield Slam. (As Shield Slam is on 1.5s CD at this point, meaning it will come up before the next GCD anyway.)

So, in this case:
Shield Slam -> Revenge -> Devastate -> ( Shockwave > Rend > Devastate or refresh debuffs if you are responsible )

If you try to use Shockwave or Rend earlier in the rotation, for instance:
Shield Slam -> Shockwave -> X

You are lowering your TPS by a considerable margin. Especially the first GCD following a Shield Slam is the most important to use on something that can potentially reset the cooldown of Shield Slam, as this is the maximum benefit of Sword and Board.

If you have Heavy Repercussions, try to use Shield Block as close to your Shield Slam as possible. Using it following a Shield Slam is simply going to waste potential buffed Shield Slams.

But, general rule of thumb, if DPS is going to start out full gung-ho from the first second, try to get someone to Misdirect or Tricks of the Trade you. (However, on fights where you intend to taunt right away, like Chimeron, keep in mind that Misdirection-style effects can have very, very odd results with Taunt.)

[Booi]

keep in mind that Misdirection-style effects can have very, very odd results with Taunt.)

Not sure how this is classified as "odd". The taunting tank gets the temporary threat of the current tank, and this threat simply does not decay. You can see it pretty clearly on the first tank swap of our V&T hm kill:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olGj_3nVLaE

The issues on chimaeron just arise from having the starting tank at full vengeance (15 seconds in) and the taunting tank having none. With 4.5 seconds between the double attack buff going up and it getting consumed, you simple get passed before the attacks come out. This issue is compounded if there are active TotT on the starting tank. The solution is not to taunt right when the buff goes up, but wait 3 seconds then hit taunt.

EDIT: i guess to put it plainly: you can abuse this fact to transform starting TotT and MDs into the old non-decaying style simply by swapping tanks 25 seconds into the fight.

[Kojiyama]

Actually, I have seen a number of cases (on a few tanks) where the taunting tank loses aggro as soon as the fixate goes away even if the original tank did absolutely nothing but stand there.

There is certainly something a bit odd about how the temporary threat interacts with taunts.

For example, on Chimearon I had my OT taunt off me fairly early in the fight, I had only done a couple Mangles at that point, and he taunted off the double attack. My threat almost immediately became 112% of his, even though I had done nothing other than a single white swing and he had already used SotR and a few other attacks. I saw this on another occassion where I actually stopped melee swinging as well.

Would need to test it more specifically to find out exactly what causes it, but it did not seem immediately obvious what the issue was.

[Booi]

Actually, I have seen a number of cases (on a few tanks) where the taunting tank loses aggro as soon as the fixate goes away even if the original tank did absolutely nothing but stand there.

There is certainly something a bit odd about how the temporary threat interacts with taunts.

For example, on Chimearon I had my OT taunt off me fairly early in the fight, I had only done a couple Mangles at that point, and he taunted off the double attack. My threat almost immediately became 112% of his, even though I had done nothing other than a single white swing and he had already used SotR and a few other attacks. I saw this on another occassion where I actually stopped melee swinging as well.

Would need to test it more specifically to find out exactly what causes it, but it did not seem immediately obvious what the issue was.

And you're certain no one still had an active TotT or MD on you?

[klausi]

Either Booi's idea or just lag.

We had this on a couple of wipes as well and it basically looked like this:
0.00.00 after announcement over voice MT stopped doing stuff
0.00.01 OT taunt
0.00.02 MT style1 crits for x damage
...
0.00.04 taunt fades, MT gains aggro

And we encountered some very serious problems with DK (off)tanking due to how threat is generated via deathstrike. Looks like Heal, absorb and damage counts and +10-15% aggro jumps were pretty common thanks to those insane damage spikes.

[Kojiyama]

I wasn't aware that absorbs counted. That's interesting if it's the case.

I'm still not totally convinced it's a 'normal' issue in these cases, because I've not seen it outside of MD-style effects. It could just be a confluence of events, but it seemed too inconsistent to be that. I mean, people chain-used MD in Wrath and there were a lot of tank swap fights and I never saw anything like this before.

Still, could be. Going to try to test it tonight (was raiding last night, so didn't have time.) If it is something odd, it's probably related to with how the threat decay mechanic works somehow. We'll see.