You are doing something wrong if you are going OOM.
Judge more, Consecrate less.
I go really fast out of mana (oom) with Seal of Truth, in WotLK it was almost impossible, should we paladin tank with seal of insight nowadays? And it's also self-healing mechanism so it helps a bit our healers.
You are doing something wrong if you are going OOM.
Judge more, Consecrate less.
Originally Posted by Kahmal
I'm an alt-oholic. I'm ok with that.
Yeah, I have yet to have a mana issue tanking on my pally since the new talent trees came out. Take Consecration out of the rotation and use it only when necessary and glyph Crusader Strike.
The only time I seem to run under 20% is large adds pulls during a period of heavy damage. In that time I use quite a few cooldowns. Less damage healed means less mana. I like to keep consecration down when I can during a fight like the chaos boss in HoO. I don't always trust my main aoe attack to always be able to hold.
One thing to be aware of is that using Divine Plea, your healing is reduced, and I prefer to use a full Word of Glory in that exact type of situation.
I'm going to bump this post with an addition.
I tank with Seal of Insight.
Now, the mana thing is noticeable, but isnt the reason. With Seal of Insight your mana is basically infinite and you can spam whatever you want (frees up a major slot too), whereas at -times- I've found with Seal of Truth that you do have occasional periods of low/zero mana, often when tanking spellcasters or things that don't proc sanctuary. That's certainly no reason to use it of course, it's just a nice bonus that whilst using SoI you can just -ignore- mana rather than having to keep a little eye on it.
With the reduced relative threat of Seal of Truth/Judgement in our rotation compared to how it was in Wrath, whilst it's obvious that SoT does more single target threat than insight (and the 10 expertise glyph is yummy so you'd need to reforge) there's one primary reason I use SoI on 95% of tanking encounters:
Self Healing. Self healing which scales with vengeance.
In tank gear unbuffed at 85 my SoI procs heal for about 1500. Nothing special, but with 2/2 reckoning, high block and such, it seems a proc every 2-3 seconds isnt unusual at all when spamming tank moves. With raid buffs and a full stack of vengeance, this goes up to nearer 4,000.
I was skeptical of using Insight - I'd always been a tank that believes threat > all and prided myself on threat, but right now i have -ZERO- threat issues at 85 tanking any content off dps using insight, and after seeing a healing log from a full heroic that had me doing 23% of all healing in the group, of which over 60% was from Seal of Insight procs, I've completely changed my mind on seal priority.
Right now, healing and healer mana seems to be the Challenge in a lot of encounters, especially heroics before we're in full 346 stuff. Insight makes a HUGE difference here, and at times I feel very self sufficient with it. I feel infinitely squishier tanking with Truth.
Naturally, as soon as meters (or dpsers comments) imply that my threat ceiling is being reached, I'll instantly swap and respec to a Seal of Truth build, no questions asked. But right now, I'm miles ahead of dps on threat with Insight, and the only use I see of Truth is on encounters with a strict burn-down phase that requires the paladin to add lots of dps themselves. Although, of course, there's SOME wisdom in saying that if healers have to heal a bit less, THEY can help add more dps.
I run without Seals of the Pure or Seal of Truth glyph (i spec eternal glory and use WoG glyph for self healing), and since I found out that the Insight heals scale directly off Vengeance, it almost feels irresponsible to tank with Truth when you can do SO MUCH healing and help the healer mana, whilst still maintaining plenty of threat and damage. I 100% urge any paladin to tank a few heroics with SoI and check meters afterwards.
Currently, tanking as a paladin with SoT, to me, almost feels like a Death Knight who insists on using an Obliterate-build instead of Death Striking. Might do more damage, but...
Sapphidia's post is a real good one. Off topic from the OP's issue but I think you made your points very well. I'm a fan of using SoI on raid bosses once threat is solid and I think it's underused by the community. I do think, like you mentioned, there will be a time where threat becomes an issue again and we'll lose this utility. But for now that's not the case.
@ the OP : I wouldn't worry about going OOM , tbh I haven't fallen OOM even when using SoT, probably get better once you get more dodge / parry / block ... each of those goves us mana ^^ thx usefull talents !
Ofc not using consecration is also essential I guess , atm it itsnt part of our real treath rotation anymore unless were tanking 4+ mobs ...
@ Sapphidia : Agree 100% with your post
Tanking is not a hobby its a Lifestyle
This may be a little off the topic but it kind of comes back to it, A fellow guildy told me to drop hit and exp as it is not important anymore and he had a bunch of math that made my head hurt. My question being is this the case? In my research i came upon Paragons current tanking pally and he had like 2% hit and 1 expertise if that is the case then i would think u could use SoI anyway. Anyone have any advise on this? From what i have always done in wow i am j ust scared to drop all my hit and expertise lol atm.
I am using SoV for the first ~25 seconds of a boss fight and then switching to SoI. with the glyph of SoI and glyph of WoG my seal heals me for 4600 and my WoG can crit for 50k with wings. It's like using lay on hands every 20 seconds
In serious raiding, Vengeance will roughly triple your attack power, making sustained threat a total non-issue (or so I hear, my tank is an alt). Now hit and expertise were never tremendous (sustained) threat increases, but now most raiding tanks agree that they are totally unnecessary unless you're a DK.
DK's of course are very reliant on connecting with Death Strike, so they want to have decent hit and expertise.
In any situation, I wouldn't rely on what someone from Paragon does. They raid under extremely unique circumstances, which sometimes leads to extremely unique specs/gear/glyphs/etc.
I started using SoI after reading this thread, and i have to say I don't know why i never thought to do this myself. thank you.
Lol its like I'm in a support group... Hi, my name is Dedic and I use Seal of Insight. Great thread. Good to see eyes opening to the light. Here's why you should use SoI.
1. DPS is off the charts, so helping the healers deal with their very difficult job will save wipes and make you loved by all, and your reduced DPS isn't a big deal.
2. Healers have such an easy time healing you that they can heal everyone else (who are probably keeping adds off the healer lol)
3. You can heal more than just yourself with WoG. Often it's tank healing healer that saves a wipe since they tend to worry less about their own health than yours
4. I find that healing myself and others gives me more threat than extra damage
Think of it this way. You are a mana-generating machine. Every time you heal yourself or someone else, you are saving the healer's mana. Since many healers are complaining about the OOM issues, they really love it when their blue bars stay up and nobody dies. Oh, and they don't have to drink between fights.
If your group needs you to do better DPS then find a better (and smarter) group.
funny thing is i was banned from elitist jerks for posting a simalar post bout this same issue becuse i uesd the phase (thx) so needless to say im not going there anymore when i have new info or w/e may be the case and besides sot is great at the start of most fights to gain that burst but ya after a while changing up ur seal dont hurt at all if any it helps out ur heals so again good post imo
I learned to tank on my DK, so when I started leveling a protection pally I just naturally looked for self-heals. I have not combed all the protection threads yet, but all the end-game tanking threads for DKs are emphasizing survivability over threat because of Vengeance (face it - your threat sucks when you're dead). I started my tankadin post-cataclysm, mind you, and so my ideas were not clouded by what the priorities were before the Shattering. Looking at the seals, then, with this mindset, it never occurred to me to use anything other than Seal of Insight. I just assumed that this was the tanking seal :P
Last edited by Arrawnn; 04-01-2011 at 08:31 PM. Reason: clarification
I use to start off in instances using SoT, and would only switch to SoI if the healer was struggling, or if our dps was so high I wasn't getting off enough avoidance proc's to refresh mana. However, as I've added more and more epic pieces to my tank set, I've pretty much stopped using SoT outside of specific bosses (suck as maintaining agro on Magmaw during the exposed head phase, to which I switch back to SoI as soon as threat stabilizes) or in PvP (I PvP Prot on my off-spec, so its pretty much SoT/BoM all the time).
Seals are tools in your tool box, don't be affraid to use them at the right time for the right task!
Other then that I don't think tank healing is the issue what costs the most mana. Usually when I'm running oom in holy spec it's because of heavy AoE fights or someone not moving out of the fire.
EU | Genjuros | Buffalowings
-| Good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment. |-
The only time I go oom is when I'm hitting something that doesn't hit back -- basically a training dummy. Then sanc doesn't proc.
Nowadays I tank with Seal of Truth only and I barley go oom.
Well, most of dpsers even in random dungeons are pretty geared up so you have to keep your aggro right.
I think it was just matter of gear at the beginning of my tanking career, as it was 4 months ago and beginning of cata as well.
and yeah, there are situations like... when you are in dungeon and your healers already dead so its pretty good to change your seal to SoI to healup yourself a little bit more and with WoG.
Last edited by Subzeronoh; 04-06-2011 at 05:11 AM.