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Thread: Long Term TPS Sustainability Via Shockwave Timing

  1. #1

    Long Term TPS Sustainability Via Shockwave Timing

    I thought I'd share this with you all. It's from my site: www.tauntspam.com

    Thoughts?



    In this post I am going to examine how the timing of your first Shockwave will affect your longterm TPS on a single target vs multimob target. We are going to assume that we are using a Glyph of Shockwave for a 3 second reduction in a multi mob spec.

    In general practice, many warriors are doing a Thunderclap (1x Thunderstruck) > Shockwave opener for multiple mobs, and then going into a 3x TC > SW combo. I am here to tell you that on less than 3 targets this is actually wrong. It may be beneficial to your initial aggro, but this timing will have a negative impact on your TPS for the rest of the fight, if you Thunderclap on cooldown.

    If we use the Charge > SS > TC(x1) > SW opener, what happens with a glyph of SW is:

    Shockwave actually comes off of CD around one second before your third Thunderclap is able to be cast, meaning, if you cast SW on CD to maximize TPS, you are actually losing out on 10% extra damage from your missing Thunderstruck stack. This means you are doing a 20% SW, not a 30%.

    Well, you might say, well just wait 1 second to cast your Shockwave....well...in the long term, you will be waiting every single Shockwave, this is lost threat.

    Now, if we do a different opener, we get more flexibility, and more longterm maximized TPS.

    Opening with a Charge > SS > SW > TC(x1).... allows us to use Shockwave on CD everytime after that with a full 30% stack of Thunderstruck.

    Stipulations:

    Because of how the timing works, Shockwave will eventually be off CD before the 3rd Thunderclap. When this happens, instead of waiting for the 3rd TC (which would be an inherent threat loss), we reset the timer by Shockwaving as soon as its up (at 2x TS). This seems counter intuitive, but over a boss fight you will get more fully loaded x3 TS Shockwaves than by opening with a 1 stack, if you reset it when Shockwave overtakes TC midfight.

    The only real use of this is LK add tanking, where it works very nicely, as Shockwave is on the same CD as the Enrage that you must stun on the adds.

    With less than 4 target tanking fights you'd be better with using a Glyph of Sunder armor as it will generate more threat over two mobs, however more than this means you need to increase threat spread, and where this technique can come in quite handily.


    Conclusions and Single Target Issues:
    In terms of snap threat on many mobs, it is actually going to still benefit you to Thunderclap mobs first, to get them on you in the first place, then Shockwave them, trash doesn't live very long. For longevity multi mob tanking however, you are going to want less snap threat and more maximized TPS spread.

    When Heroic Leap becomes available, Heroic Leaping into trash that already stuns them, then Shockwaving, will make Shockwave before Thunderclap viable 100% of the time (or Charge with Blitz).


    Shockwave first, ask questions later! (Sometimes).

    In terms of using Thunderstruck on a single target boss fight, it's not really worth the points, and this is where I change my tune a bit, (before the edit I thought otherwise). The 3 points are actually better spent elsewhere, such as Shield Spec and Gag Order. Even on fights that you don't need to interrupt, the threat lost from wasting a GCD on a Thunderclap is trumped by putting the points into Gag Order. Heroic Throwing on cooldown, when not needed for utility, actually does very good TPS, especially when glyphed.
    Last edited by Raij; 11-28-2010 at 07:51 PM.

  2. #2
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    You're correct that waiting for the 3rd stack of Thunderstruck is a net DPS/threat loss, compared to just using SW a as it comes off CD. Another reason this is true is that using TC more than you have to is a net DPS/threat loss aswell - even considering all factors. So it's partially because a waiting for the cooldown on any ability is bad - and partially, because using TC when you don't need to, is bad.

    This is true in both single target scenarios, and multi-target (nothing changes). The only difference is that in a multi-target scenario you're going to be using TC as part of your AE rotation, thus yielding more Thunderstuck stacks. It's irrelevant to using the ability as it comes off cooldown though.

    The glyph is also irrelevant. It only dictates how many GCDs you have to wait in between uses. You still use it as it comes off cooldown, without regard to Thunderstruck stacks, regardless of Glyph.

    I also have to disagree with you on the last paragraph entirely. If you do not need the interrupt for Heroic Throw, keep the points in Thunderstruck. You're replacing that 2nd Heroic Throw with Rend once per minute, and is nearly equal to the increased damage you would do from Gag Order. If you Rend one additional time per minute (total of twice per minute), Thunderstruck surpasses Gag Order for single target DPS/threat.

    Other things:
    I'm not sure why you have 1 sentence about Glyph of Sunder Armor is in there. It's totally out of place. (and the wording doesn't agree with me - I'm pretty sure LK can be done without the Glyph of Sunder.)

    Heroic Leap (as of current build) no longer stuns.

    There seems to be some misinformation on your website. Specifically the single target rotation page (http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/566...orityfinal.png). Similar to what I said in my first paragraph. TC should only be used as absolutely needed. If you have another raid member providing the attack speed slow debuff, you can take it off your bars. On your single target rotation you should not be prioritizing TC over any other ability in your spell book (except to maintain the debuff). TC has about the same priority as Demo Shout. The only exception is if you have a Blood and Thunder build, and you're refreshing Rend via TC.

    Also, assuming I'm reading it correctly (I may very well not be), it appears you have 16GCDs worth of abilities there, but only 3 Shield Slams. Discounting Sword and Board procs, there should be a minimum of 4 Shield Slams in a 16GCD period. For example, your first TC in the rotation should not be there, except if providing the debuff (everything would move up 1 spot). Also, the "Thunderclap X2 TS" should be a Shield Slam - as it has been 4 GCDs since the last SS.

    Too much TC, not enough cow bell - I mean SS.
    Last edited by Andenthal; 11-27-2010 at 11:28 AM. Reason: redundancy
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  3. #3
    Yes I have to edit both of those for current information. In terms of Rend, is it really worth taking for a single target build at 80? I don't think so. At 85, absolutely. But right now I disregard it and as such, why I say use HT over it. Thoughts?

    I also didn't say LK couldn't be done without a glyph of sunder. Where did you get that? I have never used a glyph of sunder. My sentence on LK is in regards to using this Shockwave prioritization. Not anything to do with Sunder glyphs. Edit: Oh I see, I spaced it badly. Fixing. my point was, add tanking on LK is > than 3 targets and as such, using the Glyph isn't worth it on that fight.

    That priority chart was built around Thunderstruck maxing, which isn't good for threat, so I have to redo it.

    I will assume we are using Blood and Thunder at 85, and will fix it accordingly however.
    Last edited by Raij; 11-26-2010 at 11:08 PM.

  4. #4
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    I'm just not sure sacrificing 10% shockwave damage at the beginning of a fight when threat is most sketchy in order to gain 10% 17 seconds into a fight when things should be under control is worth it. I think I'd rather take my 10% boosted shockwave up front. Most AoE fights don't last much longer than that, or if they do, they are usually down to 1-2 mobs remaining, lessening the effectiveness of Shockwave anyway. I generally don't use Shockwave in my single target rotation, partly because I tank with a DK and don't need to apply the TC debuff, but even if I did, I'm not worried about the long term threat generation in a fight nearly as much as I am those first 8 seconds or so.
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  5. #5
    Yeh, this will mostly apply to possible future Cata bosses. It's theoretical and maybe not even practical. But it was an idea I had. Hey shoot me!

  6. #6
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    LOLOLOLOL ... less then 3 mobs all you need to use is cleave and tab revenge with cleave glyph, even discussing anything else is a huge waste of time ... what is the point of this post ... save your shockwave for when you need it not waste it on packs of 3 or less ... even packs of 4 can be handled without the use of shock wave at all ...

    stacking up TC should be the last thing on any aoe tanks mind ... seriously

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    If the patch notes are correct and Devastate no longer has innate threat, then BnT is worth it even for single target.

    Right now the priority seems rather simple tbh:
    Shield Block
    Shield Slam (HR)
    Shockwave
    Heroic Throw/Conc Blow
    Shield Slam
    Revenge
    Rend/BnT
    Victory Rush
    Devastate

    For AoE:
    Shockwave > Thunderclap at all times.
    Revenge, Cleave, then Shield Slam & Devastate

    With Heroic Strike whenever you have sufficient Rage income (Easiest guideline would be at 65+ Rage).
    If you macro SB to Shield Slam, just use it at top prio as well.
    You can refresh BnT as soon as <6s are left on the timer, without BnT you should let Rend fall off first.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by raij
    Heroic Throwing on cooldown, when not needed for utility, actually does very good TPS, especially when glyphed.
    Does Heroic Throw no longer reset the swing timer? I seem to recall that being the case and why it should not be used in your regular rotation.
    Last edited by tripp6sic6; 11-27-2010 at 04:21 AM. Reason: Added quote

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by tripp6sic6 View Post
    Does Heroic Throw no longer reset the swing timer? I seem to recall that being the case and why it should not be used in your regular rotation.
    With a decent stack of Vengeance, Heroic throw does more threat than a white swing and a Revenge together. Add the glyph and you're rocking some great threat most of your abilities won't beat.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    If the patch notes are correct and Devastate no longer has innate threat, then BnT is worth it even for single target.

    Right now the priority seems rather simple tbh:
    Shield Block
    Shield Slam (HR)
    Shockwave
    Heroic Throw/Conc Blow
    Shield Slam
    Revenge
    Rend/BnT
    Victory Rush
    Devastate

    For AoE:
    Shockwave > Thunderclap at all times.
    Revenge, Cleave, then Shield Slam & Devastate

    With Heroic Strike whenever you have sufficient Rage income (Easiest guideline would be at 65+ Rage).
    If you macro SB to Shield Slam, just use it at top prio as well.
    You can refresh BnT as soon as <6s are left on the timer, without BnT you should let Rend fall off first.
    Sorry, what does HR stand for?

  11. #11
    Heavy repurcussions.
    LOLOLOLOL ... less then 3 mobs all you need to use is cleave and tab revenge with cleave glyph, even discussing anything else is a huge waste of time ... what is the point of this post ... save your shockwave for when you need it not waste it on packs of 3 or less ... even packs of 4 can be handled without the use of shock wave at all ...

    stacking up TC should be the last thing on any aoe tanks mind ... seriously"
    Actually, stacking up TC should be on your mind. For more than 3 targets, you have nothing that will hit all 3, tabbing and hitting each mob with single target abilities is inneficient, in one global you will only hit 1-3 targets. What about the 4th? The only abilities you have that hit all mobs are Thunderclap and Shockwave. To get the most Threat Spread (you know the whole point of my argument), over a long period of time, you would want to Thunderclap to hit all the mobs that you are tanking, not just 1-3, not to mention, Rend spreading. Think before you speak, and read before you post.

    This argument wasn't even about 3 packs or less, I was saying that it wasn't infact worth it on 3 or less, for the above reasons.
    Last edited by Raij; 11-27-2010 at 11:40 AM.

  12. #12
    I actually find HS to be sustainable after 50 rage so far War. When I mention Heroic Leaping into mobs to replace a thunderclap for initial aggro (because some will float behind you), I don't care about the stun, the damage will get them aggro'd on to you.
    Last edited by Raij; 11-27-2010 at 11:28 AM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Sorry, what does HR stand for?
    Heavy Repercussions
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  14. #14
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    Thunderclap feels very weak to me, even if you add 10% shockwave damage. Probably only worth using for the debuff or with BnT refreshing rend. I use it sometimes at the start of a pull to round everything up.
    The idea of maintaining high threat on 3 mobs also seems a bit odd, its either trash that dies quickly or if it lives longer you probably want to focus 1 add and move to the next one. Even on something like adds on lady deathwhisper i dont think thunderclapx3 is better then tab devastate. Maybe when you get 5-6+ mobs its a decent tactic.

  15. #15
    That's more of when I was thinking of using this Bigbad. As I mentioned, things like H LK add tanking, or maybe in Cata.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    If the patch notes are correct and Devastate no longer has innate threat, then BnT is worth it even for single target.


    You can refresh BnT as soon as <6s are left on the timer, without BnT you should let Rend fall off first.
    Wartotem, do you mean Thunderstruck when you say BnT? or is it a case that one a single target fight the damage of TS and a tick of Rend is greater than Dev's? If you don't mean Thunderstruck, how does Thunderstruck affect BnT on a single target fight?

  17. #17
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    BnT = Blood and Thunder
    The damage from Thunderclap is near worthless, it is the Rend that does the damage/threat.
    With the removal of innate threat on Devastate, just the Rend ticks of BnT wins out, meaning you'll ALWAYS want to Rend anything you tank for more than 15s

    Thunder Clap's damage is relatively low.
    That means that while great for AoE-tanking, Thunderstruck does not add enough damage single damage to make a difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    If the patch notes are correct and Devastate no longer has innate threat, then BnT is worth it even for single target.

    Right now the priority seems rather simple tbh:
    Shield Block
    Shield Slam (HR)
    Shockwave
    Heroic Throw/Conc Blow
    Shield Slam
    Revenge
    Rend/BnT
    Victory Rush
    Devastate

    For AoE:
    Shockwave > Thunderclap at all times.
    Revenge, Cleave, then Shield Slam & Devastate

    With Heroic Strike whenever you have sufficient Rage income (Easiest guideline would be at 65+ Rage).
    If you macro SB to Shield Slam, just use it at top prio as well.
    You can refresh BnT as soon as <6s are left on the timer, without BnT you should let Rend fall off first.
    I could've sworn that blizz said they didn't want to muck with our rotation/priority. That's a pretty radical departure from the tbc/lk norm.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistersix View Post
    I could've sworn that blizz said they didn't want to muck with our rotation/priority. That's a pretty radical departure from the tbc/lk norm.
    They also said they didn't want us to mash HS non-stop.
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  20. #20
    Victory Rush won't proc above 20% regardless. I think it's a waste of talent points. So I'd take that out of the chart personally.
    Last edited by Raij; 11-28-2010 at 01:50 PM.

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