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Thread: DK, DW or 2H?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goros View Post
    I was tempted to respond as well, but was afraid this person was a troll. I mean, no one who plays a dk seriously as dps or a tank can truly completely lack the understanding of their talent trees, can they? I mean, since dk's were never intended to tank with tanking weapons (hence stoneskin gargoyle) and DW tanking wasn't viable till 3.3, this can't be serious.

    I'm convinced it's a troll baiting everyone and playing dumb, because no human could possibly be so dumb.

    It would almost be like watching people tank in frost presence still, that never happens (heh)

    Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
    I don't think it was a troll. I run into too many DK tanks trying to dual wield to think it's a troll. Ran into one the other night in the Lost City of the Tol'vir while I was on my warrior. Healer actually blamed me for pulling aggro. Sometimes I'd wait 5 seconds or more before going in, stop dps after pulling aggro. Wait until he re-established aggro, then pulled it again.
    Kathy, I said, "I'm lost" though I knew she was sleeping
    I'm empty and aching and I don't know why
    Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike
    They've all gone to look for America

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goros View Post

    because no human could possibly be so dumb.
    Having practiced criminal law for 10 years in a former life, I can safely say "yes, they can."

  3. #23
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    This is very poor thinking. I would recommend you take a look at Satorri's reasoning for why DW Tanking isn't effective in his thread. But I'll make some concise points:
    1) There are no 2-hander tank weapons
    - Yes, this is true, but DKs have never used Tank weapons in the first place. Even DW DKs used DPS weapons. Tank weapons have a tendency to have fast weapon speeds, which means lower damage per hit, which makes them effectively worse than slower weapons. aka A DK shouldn't have ever used Tank weapons in the first place, and they're meant to use DPS weapons anyways. 2-hand DK Tanking has always been viable, and, technically, usually among the best methods of Tanking. Now it's the only method. Perhaps that could change in the future, but I wouldn't put my money on it.

    2) The DW Talent from the first tier of Frost is all I need
    - Wrong. In fact, while a nice talent, it is not THE talent that makes DWing viable. Nerves of Cold Steel has been in the tree for quite some time, but DW Frost wasn't truly viable until Threat of Thassarian was put in, because it allows two weapons to effectively scale viably with the damage that a 2-hander puts out. Without Threat of Thassarian you're essentially only doing damage for your weapon strikes with your main-hand one-hander which will always be less damage than an equivalent two-hander, your other one-hander is only doing white damage. It's Threat of Thassarian which allows both weapons to do damage and thus keep DWing on par.[/QUOTE]

    #1 I never said it was the best or first choice just that it is do-able and has some benefits as well as drawbacks which is exactly what Satori said. ( And was giving him the option to do as he wished rather than telling him to join the flock!)

    #2 DK's were meant to use tanking weapons and having 3 lvl 80 healers I can tell you it makes a difference when I am healing them! (your thinking is what led to many healers hating to heal for DK tanks)

    #2 1/2 If you had to use a 2-hander for threat then you were not using your abilities correctly cuz I lvl'd 2 dk tanks (ally + horde) one with DW and tthe other with 2=h and threat was not a problem with DW.

    #3 Threat of Thaurisian increases the chance of you off-hand rune proc it will proc without it just not as often. (I have used it and it does proc)
    "It's always the Healer's fault; unless it's the Tanks fault, just ask the DPS'er in purples doing 5k!"

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uranos7 View Post
    This is very poor thinking. I would recommend you take a look at Satorri's reasoning for why DW Tanking isn't effective in his thread. But I'll make some concise points:
    1) There are no 2-hander tank weapons
    - Yes, this is true, but DKs have never used Tank weapons in the first place. Even DW DKs used DPS weapons. Tank weapons have a tendency to have fast weapon speeds, which means lower damage per hit, which makes them effectively worse than slower weapons. aka A DK shouldn't have ever used Tank weapons in the first place, and they're meant to use DPS weapons anyways. 2-hand DK Tanking has always been viable, and, technically, usually among the best methods of Tanking. Now it's the only method. Perhaps that could change in the future, but I wouldn't put my money on it.

    2) The DW Talent from the first tier of Frost is all I need
    - Wrong. In fact, while a nice talent, it is not THE talent that makes DWing viable. Nerves of Cold Steel has been in the tree for quite some time, but DW Frost wasn't truly viable until Threat of Thassarian was put in, because it allows two weapons to effectively scale viably with the damage that a 2-hander puts out. Without Threat of Thassarian you're essentially only doing damage for your weapon strikes with your main-hand one-hander which will always be less damage than an equivalent two-hander, your other one-hander is only doing white damage. It's Threat of Thassarian which allows both weapons to do damage and thus keep DWing on par.
    #1 I never said it was the best or first choice just that it is do-able and has some benefits as well as drawbacks which is exactly what Satori said. ( And was giving him the option to do as he wished rather than telling him to join the flock!)

    #2 DK's were meant to use tanking weapons and having 3 lvl 80 healers I can tell you it makes a difference when I am healing them! (your thinking is what led to many healers hating to heal for DK tanks)

    #2 1/2 If you had to use a 2-hander for threat then you were not using your abilities correctly cuz I lvl'd 2 dk tanks (ally + horde) one with DW and tthe other with 2=h and threat was not a problem with DW.

    #3 Threat of Thaurisian increases the chance of you off-hand rune proc it will proc without it just not as often. (I have used it and it does proc)[/QUOTE]


    Let's deal with this 1 thing at a time:

    #1 What exactly are the benefits you see for using 2 1H tank weapons? A very small amount of avoidance? Effective health is still currently king and I'm sure it will still this way for quite awhile. Maybe you might gain some stamina? Wrong again, a 2H weapon of the same ilvl has more stamina than 2 tank weapons.
    Now the drawbacks are huge. Using 2 tank weapons produces considerably less threat than using a 2H weapon. Right now as it stands when DW you are basically using only 1 1H weapon since your OH weapon is only white hitting for reduced damage. This is basically the same as if a bear was to use a 1H weapon instead of a 2H weapon.

    #2 Since when were DK's meant to use tank weapons? The ONLY place i could possibly see DWing tank weapons a benefit to survivability is in content you severely out gear but then again you can gem spirit/intel on your DK and it wouldn't matter. By the way the reason healers "hate" healing dk's is because there are so many that don't know how to hold threat, gear or spec, and in the current state of dk tanking healers hate DW dk tanks.

    #2.5 Again DW was only viable for frost spec pre 4.0 and only if said tank took the talent ToT. I have personally gone through this myself before i came to tankspot. I started out using 2 1H tank weapons without ToT, wasn't able to hold threat so I respecced into ToT and threat became less of an issue but didn't eliminate the issue until I was able to pick up 2 1H dps weapons. After getting into ICC I was finally able to grab a 2H weapon and immediately switched to 2H frost at which point threat became a joke. I digress though since we are currently post 4.0 and Dk tanks do not have the option of picking up ToT. I repeat ToT was the only reason that DW was viable for tanking pre 4.0.

    #3 Which enchant are you talking about proccing? pre 4.0 there were 2 standard runes that DK's used, those were http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=70164 and http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=62158, both of which do not proc. Currently of those 2 only http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=62158 is still viable. Disclaimer* http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=53344 is used primary for high end tanks needing that extra bit of threat to keep away those pesky 15-20k dps especially for farm content.

    On a side but similar note. I hope that Blizz will get smart and combine Nerves of Cold steel with ToT to avoid this confusion. It is obvious to me that Blizz was attempting to kill off DW tanking while still giving frostie dps the option of DW or 2H.

  5. #25
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    Fallen Crusader is actually decent for trivial content for the DPS, heal, and TPS too, especially in the multitude of situations where dying simply isn't possible. I use it every fight except HLK.

    Also for clarity, every tank class is FILLED with idiots. Healers "hated" dk tanks because the majority of healers are healing heroics and 10 mans at most, where DKs suffered a crippling disadvantage without block or savage fury/insane bear health.
    There will be a lot less complaining about the damage intake discrepancy in Cataclysm 5 mans.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uranos7 View Post
    This is very poor thinking. I would recommend you take a look at Satorri's reasoning for why DW Tanking isn't effective in his thread. But I'll make some concise points:
    1) There are no 2-hander tank weapons
    - Yes, this is true, but DKs have never used Tank weapons in the first place. Even DW DKs used DPS weapons. Tank weapons have a tendency to have fast weapon speeds, which means lower damage per hit, which makes them effectively worse than slower weapons. aka A DK shouldn't have ever used Tank weapons in the first place, and they're meant to use DPS weapons anyways. 2-hand DK Tanking has always been viable, and, technically, usually among the best methods of Tanking. Now it's the only method. Perhaps that could change in the future, but I wouldn't put my money on it.

    2) The DW Talent from the first tier of Frost is all I need
    - Wrong. In fact, while a nice talent, it is not THE talent that makes DWing viable. Nerves of Cold Steel has been in the tree for quite some time, but DW Frost wasn't truly viable until Threat of Thassarian was put in, because it allows two weapons to effectively scale viably with the damage that a 2-hander puts out. Without Threat of Thassarian you're essentially only doing damage for your weapon strikes with your main-hand one-hander which will always be less damage than an equivalent two-hander, your other one-hander is only doing white damage. It's Threat of Thassarian which allows both weapons to do damage and thus keep DWing on par.
    #1 I never said it was the best or first choice just that it is do-able and has some benefits as well as drawbacks which is exactly what Satori said. ( And was giving him the option to do as he wished rather than telling him to join the flock!)

    #2 DK's were meant to use tanking weapons and having 3 lvl 80 healers I can tell you it makes a difference when I am healing them! (your thinking is what led to many healers hating to heal for DK tanks)

    #2 1/2 If you had to use a 2-hander for threat then you were not using your abilities correctly cuz I lvl'd 2 dk tanks (ally + horde) one with DW and tthe other with 2=h and threat was not a problem with DW.

    #3 Threat of Thaurisian increases the chance of you off-hand rune proc it will proc without it just not as often. (I have used it and it does proc)[/QUOTE]

    You're trolling dude, either that or you truly don't understand and refuse to believe. All of my points have solid, factual evidence behind them.

    #1) As was mentioned, the avoidance and defensive stats on a Tank weapon are negligible at best, especially when you put a Tanking rune on it. Let's compare:
    If you're a Deathknight using two Tank weapons:
    Troggbanex 2
    Rune of the Nerubian Carapace x2 (for purposes of ease of calculation, we'll assume all other gear is the same, so the only stamina difference that needs to be calculated is for the weapon
    Survival gain:
    Stamina: +222 (+60 with gems) (+5 with Rune) = 287
    Dodge: 2.2% (before diminishing returns)
    Parry: 1.72% (before diminishing returns) (+0.67% from strength)
    For a total of: 4.59% avoidance gained

    Now let's use an equal iLvL DPS weapon, two-hander:
    Glorenzelg
    Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle
    Survival Gain:
    Stamina: +259 (+60 with gems) (+6 with Rune) = 325
    Dodge: None
    Parry: +0.79% Parry rating
    For a total of: 0.79%

    So the Tank weapons are better for avoidance, but the 2-hander is better for Health, which totals into EH and ultimately means you live longer. In the course of a minute, your roughly 4% more avoidance might result in 2 less attacks, if you're lucky, or likely 0 or 1. Whereas the hp gain from using the two-hander is 380 life, and having 380 life will be more useful with every hit you take, since it gives healers that much more breathing room with which to keep you up. Thus, in reality, healers would favor you having the two-hander and math would say the two-hander is better for survival. However, chance might call them equal, if you're lucky. But then if we look at the threat values, you'll find that 996 max possible weapon damage with your two one-handers (assuming Threat of Thassarian for yellow-damage attacks and ALSO not taking into account penalties for off-hand) is vastly inferior to 1344 max possible weapon damage with the two-hander so you'll be doing more threat and Tank DPS with the two-hander.

    Morale of the story: Healers will not notice you being any easier to heal because you have two one-hand TANK weapons. I didn't use them and I was generally the easiest Tank to heal because I used my Cooldowns effectively, that's what separates good DK Tanks from bad ones. However, DPS will notice threat issues coming from DK Tanks using two one-handed Tank weapons, mostly on single-target, whereas they won't when you use a two-handed DPS weapon.

    #2) Read the text for Threat of Thassarian. It doesn't mean your off-hand rune will proc more often. It means you have a 100% chance (with all three points in it) to deal damage with your off-hand weapon on the attacks listed. All it does it try to make doing damage with two one-handers roughly equivalent to one two-hander. However, since Tank weapons have been traditionally of a fast speed (and thus lower damage value) in WotLK that still made two one-hand DPS weapons better for Tanking than two one-hand Tank weapons. And, of course, with the changes in 4.0.1, DW is no longer viable for progression. You could maybe play around with it in a casual, non-progressed environment, but you're still likely going to have to deal with threat issues, etc... so you're really just punishing others to do it.

    Death Knight Tanks were meant to use DPS weapons. As of 4.0.1 they're meant to use only two-handers too. Anything else is objectively wrong.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by phfantunes View Post
    Kinda off topic, but somewhat related to the discussion above. I think it would be a good move from Blizzard to remove tanking stats from weapons. Druids and DKs are balanced around it and in BC Paladins had to use spellpower weapons if they wanted to have any threat at all, so this isn't something from another world. Also, with reforging, it's entirely possible to take a weapon with say, crit and hit, and turn it into something tanky.

    Most importantly however, is that this would make STR one-handers interesting for the shield tanks, whereas, in the current state of the game, they are only desired by half of a spec tree (Fury Warriors with Single Minded Fury and DW Frost DKs). The fact that one-handed STR weapons are limited to such a small niche makes me fear that they will be very hard to come by or in other cases be an unwanted drop that consistently gets disenchanted.
    I disagree. Unless you want to convert certain stats like strength convert into avoidance stats and use crit as a threat modifier where improving your crit rating allows you to generate more threat, I can't see 1 hand strength weapons being needed by tanks for anything more then pure threat generation, while sacrificing avoidance stats. In the future this may wind up being the case where if you go into a tanking spec, with the way things are itemized in Cataclysm, your strength based plate gear does not have any more strength then a piece of tanking gear, your only difference is going to be your health pool.


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  8. #28
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    Well, strength already converts to parry and crit obviously increases threat.

    I'm not saying they're needed, but rather that it would be a good ideia (from a itemization point of view) to force us into them, by removing avoidance stats on one-handers. This would force us to compete for them against DW DKs and Warriors (both of which are half of a tree). There's no "sacrifice of avoidance stats" simply because they would be nowhere to be found and we would work exactly like DKs and Bears do now (possibly with some tuning, due to the loss of one source of avoidance stats).

    I'm only "suggesting" this because I fear str one-handers will be either very rare to come by (since they are extremely niche) or unwanted by nearly 90% of raid groups. I miss the good ol' Fury days when they didn't wield two giant Axes in each hand. See, there are some thing I simply don't digest and avoid at all costs (silly, I know). In my mind, there's no such thing as Combat Rogues and it's the Arms warrior who wields the huge axe, not the berserker, faster warrior.

    On a side note, a quick search on wowhead granted me 5 results of weapons that grant dodge or parry (only one of them being epic), so maybe Blizzard already has this in mind (searches: url=http://www.wowhead.com/items=2?filter=minrl=85;cr=46;crs=1;crv=0 and http://www.wowhead.com/items=2?filte...45;crs=1;crv=0)

  9. #29
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    As much as I loved DW on my DK tank, and defended it ferociously when people were claiming "Parry haste will kill you", it's not really a good option now. I did DW tank before ToT was in the game, and I had mild success, but it really was only possible because of things like Howling Blast. As Blood, that means you will have even less success doing it.

    I loved DW tanking. If Blizzard brought it back, I might consider actually playing my DK again. But for now, it's dead... people need to let it go.

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