In WotLK raiding, the sustained threat is generally not a problem for an experienced and properly geared tank. What tanks usually worry about is the initial threat, as it's generally necessary for damage dealers to pop their cooldowns within mere seconds of a fight to maximize their dps. That's the whole reason for the design of Misdirection and ToT, and to give IT a massive *7 threat modifier in patch 3.3.5..
The idea of Vengeance just goes against all of these. Vengeance means that the threat of a tank is supposed to be weakest at the beginning of a fight and graudually build up. It also contradicts the basic concept of tanks being optimized to take as less damage as possible. Not to mention that vengeance also bring great annoyance in trash fights.
So instead of vengeance, why not just give tanks a passive flat AP increase based on HP? The value could be adjusted to be lower than current vengeance to prevent any OP dps from tanks or people with tank spec (it should be no problem if this AP increase only happens with a threat multiplier). Just call it body fitness or bodybuilder or whatever.
My biggest issue with the new Vengeance design is it basically says "warriors should be off tanks". Because as it stands the only correct Vengeance target is the MT. Not that I have an issue with being an OT for the greater good of progression, but I do not like being pigeon holed.
There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.
PvP balance.Originally Posted by Superworm
I couldn't agree more with the first part of your post superworm. I try to do my best to allow the dps in my raid to optimize their dps.
If you really think about it, at least to my experience as a progression tank, the only *serious* times i've ever started to see major threat issues was either overzealous burst at around geared Ulduar, or ToC.
The only moment dps could really start catching up to the point of pulling off of you, was in ICC once the raid-wide buff started to scale higher. The threat gained via their dps outscaled the threat we gained via our own dps. It accentuated the burst problems, but was honestly workable if you had enough anticipation (assuming the dps weren't exageratedly overzealous).
If i think back at fights that encouraged a full survivability specc, more often than not, there was a workaround that didn't hinder dps much or the fight's challenge didn't revolve around alot of threat generation.
Vengeance as it is, basically fixes nothing that represented an element of stress for us. It only fixes threat scaling should there ever be another ICC buff (which i hope they don't do ever again). Or then again, it covers for a player tanking, who doesn't optimize his level of play to meet a more challenging task.
The reason why i say i agree with the first part, is simply because i think (while quick and simple as blizzard likes to do at times) your suggestion wouldn't be the best fix we could apply.
Mostly for said PvP reasons, although even now vengeance can be rather OP, but also because attack power gain from stamina, really messes with any sense of tuning for bear druids and savage defense. I still cannot believe they first nerfed savage defense, while bears run around with a bit over double AP.
What i suggest, idk if its much of a better idea, would be similar to the Marksman talent that grants crit to targets that are above 80% HP.
Vengeance, could be a mix of a higher threat modifier and some other threat benefiting stat when your taget is above X% hp. Just so you cannot wreck any target at full hp, but at least have a large advantage over other dps classes for the first idk 10-20%.
All i can say is that if vengeance stays the same, blizzard can no longer avoid balancing encounters without knowing that tanks can represent as much or just a bit less damage than a normal DPS class. Even if its nerfed, encounters will feel easy if tank dps can bring more damage proportion than they did in WotlK.
*sigh*
You guys don't get it, and keep making complaints about it, using half-complete ideas as an argument.
Vengeance is an attempt to let tank threat scale better with their gear. While it's not the perfect solution, I think it's a reasonable one. Near the end of ICC there was a definite issue with threat - I needed the tricks and misdirects I was getting.
I don't understand the complaints about Vengeance stacking too high. In ICC, we double dip in the buff, so Vengeance doesn't really work as intended there. If Vengeance was designed with the lower tank damage bosses in mind, then we should wait untill Cata hits before claiming it stacks too high - I fully expect it to not reach it's maximum on many fights.
The most heard complaint about it is "But what about the start of the fight?" Well, you have tricks and misdirects for that, or your dps will have to give you a head start. This is how it was before vengeance came up, nothing changed there.
In trash AoE fights, some dps can pull aggro from you. From my own experience, the biggest change is that the dps that pulls aggro lives a little longer, so you have more time to fix the issue. Before Vengeance, High AoE dps could pull aggro, after Vengeance it's the same, but it's easier to fix due to some of the other changes.
I really love the "warriors should be off tanks" argument as well. I don't see it. Warriors get a bonus while offtanking - a bonus that can't be put into the design of fights. I don't understand why giving warriors a bonus is a bad thing. Perhaps they are better offtanks then other classes, but they are equally good main tanks. If anything, the other tanks should be complaining for not getting such a cool tool.
If you don't like Vengeance, that's fine by me. I'd love to discuss the ramifications of it, but for the love of god, use real arguments. The hogwash that's being used so far doesn't help your cause - it hurts your cause because all your arguments are so easily debunked.
From what I've read in various blue posts and elsewhere Vengeance is designed to provide a means by which Blizz can tune tank threat as we progress through the content.
If it turns out that the DPS are scaling faster than the Tanks, Vengeance is the knob that the devs will tweak to adjust that.
I can't speak for the Beta or PTR ... but I'm certain that Vengeance does not work as Blizz intend in Wrath content, because the content wasn't designed with Vengeance in mind in the first place. I honestly don't think we'll see how Vengeance works until Cata.
Bodasafa - I suspect that you're talking about Vigilance, not Vengeance. You're correct that the only logical place for a warrior tank to put his Vigilance in a two tank fight is the other tank. But I don't believe that means that warriors have to be the offtank: If you're a better tank than the other guy ... you'll be Main Tank.
Besides - I personally don't mind WHAT I'm tanking as long as I'm having fun!
Arthalion
I would like to point out that this is not entirely accurate as both TotT and Misdirection have both become only a temporary threat transfer, i.e. all of that threat is lost once the effect wears off. Although, TotT does supply a 15% damage increase for you which would also lead to you generating more threat, however they are both no where near as powerful as they were before imo"Well, you have tricks and misdirects for that, or your dps will have to give you a head start. This is how it was before vengeance came up, nothing changed there."
...disgusting?
Kathy, I said, "I'm lost" though I knew she was sleeping
I'm empty and aching and I don't know why
Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike
They've all gone to look for America
I appreciate your optimism here, martie. But I think the point of this post is to to bring up some real concerns in tanking that blizzard simply hasnt adressed.
I understand fully the points your making here, but the problem is they assume a "best case" at all times. here is my argument
fact - dps for the most part could care less about threat managment. Infact, 90% will look to point a fingure at a tank if they pull aggro. This is a result of game design in wrath. Now, blizz has added a portion of threat managment back into the game with vengeance. I dont not forsee dps changing their attitude toward the issue. I run a LOT of heroics. I cant tell you how many dps start their rotation the second i push the charge button. well, i can... about 90%. ive had a guild leader who plays a warlock tell me " when i pull aggro im testing your tanking ability" ... in other words, he wants to justify not using soulshatter and then blaming the tank. This is a GM of the top guild on the server with a world ranking.
the message here is very clear. dps have no respect for the vengeance mechanic. This will help us tanks in the future with holding aggro throughout the fight, but snap threat is going to be a nightmare from now till forever or until the mechanic is repaired.
as for warriors off tanking: again, the mentality is not going to change as far as i can see. this is a clear advantage for an off tank. It dose nothing for a main tank. therefore warriors are going to be subject to a lot of off tanking. the problem with this is a warrior aoe threat still dosnt compare to a dk or a paladin. because of this, the roll of a warrior in convoluted. I forsee many guilds expecting warriors to off tank.
now we can discuss ideas all day long, and they will be most likly be half assed ideas. we however, do not generate 100 million dollars a month and it is not our job to think these idea thru. in my oppinion it is clear that blizzard has not considered every aspect of tanking, such as the relationship between dps and tanks that has developed over the last 2 years and the problems this is most likly going to create in months to come.
i like the vengeance mechanic, i like doing 10k dps on ferstergut, i belive threat managment should be part of the dps responcibilities, but i also aknowladge that the wow community is going to look for the easiest fix. that will be to blame the tanks and disregard aggro managment.
"Dear Santoro, Your wisdom has enlightened me. Thanks!"
I will dismiss the OT comment about Warriors, because ever since they removed the damage reduction portion of Vigilance, this is of far lesser concern than it used to be.
Blizzard has looked at the current environment which does indeed allow DPS that go straight from the start to succeed and they are fixing it .... by making them learn the hard way. Pull aggro? Well, you'll simply die, sucks to be you! Ofcourse this isn't adopted as fast by all the DPS, but any DPS that does not learn will never see a lot of bosses go down in Cataclysm, atleast not in my group!
Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
war, last i checked there still is a damage reduction from vig... just not a threat reduction.
my whole point is.. "you pull aggro, you die" is not going to change the attitude that has cultivated over the last 2 years... the only thing that is going to happen more tanks are going to get blamed.
ofcourse, your NOT in the 90%, your one of the 10% that understand tanking.. and better then most, but thats not to say that the rest of the community is suddenly going to have the same level of comprehension as an author on a fan site.. understand what im saying?
"Dear Santoro, Your wisdom has enlightened me. Thanks!"
I perceive vengeance as creating a rather nasty chain pull tanking scenario counter to the notion of wanting us to use CC again. Without a timer on the buff, we have no idea of how long we have left to mark and pull, and if the buff drops so does our TPS. It's encouragement to blind pull without thinking in an xpac where they've told us they WANT us thinking and WANT us CCing... or did I miss a memo somewhere?
It will also cause rather nasty "chob tank" backlash amongst LFD pugs, who will inevitably feel their tank has to be a 200k hp + raid tank in order to do entry level heroics, as soon as they realize that the tank's max HP = the tank's TPS.
So I'm with the OP. I see this mechanic as being a rather bad idea.
edit: To add, isn't the current beta research showing content favors a balanced HP/avoidance approach on bosses, as well? Why would you implement a mechanic that encourages ignoring proper gearing?
Last edited by Alent; 11-21-2010 at 09:56 AM.
Fixt.
This is what happens when I read and post things late at night, when I am very tired.... doh.
There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.
I am rather confused as Vigilance granting +3% mitigation has been removed for quite a few weeks on beta now.
The vengeance transfer is minimal.
@chain pulling. Its inevitable. The instance feels a lot smoother if you go with a competent healer who can handle the occasional spikes without getting a heart attack.
Under the new vengeance mechanic the first few seconds are very important: Missing your first shield slam = someone might pull off you, esp if you do not bring MD/TotT.
I start fights with a strength pre-pot which gives me a slight edge.
Once your vengeance gets high enough your brain can go afk.
I made such a post on the Dungeons forum:
Thoughts so far: Ramp up time is too high.
I understand it is suppose to "help" but I am afraid it wouldn't scale as well as dps, especially in later gears.
Allowing avoided attacks to contribute to vengeance would be nice.
Here are some ideas:
- Boost overall tank damage (ability base damage)
- Vengeance should scale with the stamina on your gear (not base health)
- Avoided attacks contribute to vengeance (if tech prohibits you can have it grant ap base on stam on gear).
- Lower vengeance max AP cap (shouldnt be seeing things like +20k atk power imo)
- Allow vengeance to stack up faster, but only from direct damage (to prevent dps from utilizing a prot spec for dps due to AP from raid dmg)
- Lower threat coefficient in "stance bonus"
Allowing vengeance to stack up faster and allowing avoidance to grant bonus to vengeance will prob fix the "I cant hold heroic dungeon threat when everyone is in t13 gears" issue.
Tanks should:
- Worry about hit and expertise on gear, and still dress appropriately for bosses. Ie, you prob want to be hit capped and expertise softcapped on a fight where vengeance regularly resets due to phase changes/taunt trading
- Still have to follow their skill priority/various procs to hold threat
- Should not purposely have to stand in fire to build a good stack of vengeance
- Should not have to worry about overgearing an instance or "the instance doesn't make my vengeance scale" (not just heroic, might be helping friend to finish ulduar in icc gear)
I am fine with a tank doing competitive dps. Just because a person is tanking a mob doesn't necessary mean his dps should suck. Maybe it will put the less skilled dps in shame to have their weak 11k dps beaten by the tank.
So what if a tank decides to wear dps gears and top meters with insane damage? Well... the raid will have the pay the price of the tank being more difficult to heal due to the missing avoidance. You most like a) way overgear the instance b) have to bring in an extra healer for the tank to pull it off/get godlike healers.
"But everyone will get a tank spec for dailies/soloing" - well... didn't a ton of player complain about the lack of tanks?
Will it ruin pvp? You can make vengeance not work in pvp.
To reiterate, that one has been removed ages (on beta), simply BECAUSE it pushed Warriors in an OT position.
We can all agree that in the cata intended environment, something will have to change, or rather die. Bluntly speaking this can be one of the following:my whole point is.. "you pull aggro, you die" is not going to change the attitude that has cultivated over the last 2 years... the only thing that is going to happen more tanks are going to get blamed.
* DPS zerg mindset (preferred option)
* The intention of making us think more over pulls in instances
* Tanks doing PuGs (goodbye casuals seeing all content)
* The game in general
Now I know that the last one is relatively harsh, but it will definately depend on how Blizz, AS WELL as the community, handles Cataclysm style instancing.
ofcourse, your NOT in the 90%, your one of the 10% that understand tanking.. and better then most, but thats not to say that the rest of the community is suddenly going to have the same level of comprehension as an author on a fan site.. understand what im saying?[/QUOTE]
Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
Has anyone seen a nice jump in tank dps since Vengeance came in? It's almost to the point where pulling more dps than the tank actually means something
<< Arcane Shots >>
jsut my 2 cents regarding this post - i don't know when most of the people you played with started playing but waaaaay back in vanilla, there used to be the concept of "wait for 5 sunders" before starting to dps. people were actually yelled at and kicked from raids for pulling aggro
cata is supposed to bring that back to a lesser degree so if dps don't learn to at least hold off until tanks have built aggro and instead prefer to "epeen and get the highest recount value", too bad for them, hope they enjoy their repair bills
there didn't use to be misdirections and tricks - those were added when blizzard realized that threat output was not scaling properly.
also, that comment about maximizing dps by blowing all cds at the start is pure bs to me - does a 15 - 20 seconds wait for aggro to build up really screw up dps in a say 7.5 minute fight? that's still 7 whole minutes to use their CDs at least twice if they wait for 30 secs. if you are encouraging them to blow their cds right from the get go rather than waiting just a little, then you are actually part of the problem of dps not wanting to let tanks build aggro.
one last thing, out of curiousity, how is vengeance an annoyance during trash pulls - if you have vengeance stacks up when pullling the next trash pack, that actually helps your threat output which contradicts your complaint- so again, how is it an annoyance?
My view is this is a workaround for warriors to be OT's.
I am assuming there is at least one Gruul/Patchwerk like encounter where the tanks have to be 1 and 2 on threat and warriros were struggling being OT's.
Just a guess but I agree with others above otherwise I can't see the need for it.
** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.
Partially my fault, but partially because they are related to one another also.
There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.
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