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Thread: Fury warrior > 100 rage

  1. #1
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    Fury warrior > 100 rage

    Hi all

    Before 4.0 I am sure I read stuff about translating >100 rage into extra damage for fury warriors but since the patch I have not been able to find any information about this mechanic.

    Am I making things up or is there some info about there about this?

    Thanks

    Kwisatz

  2. #2
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    It's an ability called Inner Rage, trainable at I think level 83.

    http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=1134
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  3. #3
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    Also as a note, Inner Rage is not stance dependent and can be used by any spec of Warrior.
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    Ok but inner rage doesn't say anything about rage >100 its just says you can use it when having over 75 rage and increase damage for extra cost.

  5. #5
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    If you're looking for something to do with rage >100, you won't find it because rage is capped at 100 and doesn't go over. Inner rage helps you keep your rage from going above 100 though.
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  6. #6
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    The original Inner Rage was a proc when you hit 100 rage. It gave you a period of increased damage and heavily increased rage spending.

    There were a lot of Dev/Player issues with that design, not the least of which being that it was passive and potentially less than ideal in some situations but you couldn't help it.

    The compromise was that they let you activate it provided your rage was getting high. Thus the spell Reev linked.
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  7. #7
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    It'd be more appealing, imo, if we could stack up to 200 or 250 Rage. Part of the problem with the current rage system is that we can go from 0 rage to capped too quickly. If we had a larger rage cap, I think that rage could be controlled much better. There's much more opportunity for in-between sized rage gains when there are more units to choose from.
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  8. #8
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    I've never fully understood why it matters that we have more rage than we can spend. I always though we were designed to be a GCD limited class, instead of a resource limited class. (at least prior to 4.0 we were, I haven't really messed around with Fury or Arms since)

    Prot/Ret Pallies don't get a bonus to damage when their mana is full. DKs don't get a bonus if they have all their Runes available or if they have full RP (they actually get a defensive bonus if their runes ARE on cooldown).

    Why do Warriors get to have more damage based on conditions that are likely not under their control?

    It seems like they are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. Having full rage is not a problem - so long as we are not designed around being a resource limited class.
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  9. #9
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    so long as we are not designed around being a resource limited class.
    Noticing what I have about our rage gen/ability cost.... we are a resource limited class. Provided tanks start avoiding substantial amounts of damage, our rage gen will be substantially lower and I can only guess that unless fury/arms damage scales substantially higher then we won't have 'infinite' rage.
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    When I say "resource limited" or "GCD limited" I'm refering to not use an ability on any given cooldown (GCD or otherwise).

    For instance, Mages and Rogues are "resource limited" classes. If a Mage is not casting a damaging spell at any given time, it is only because he has run out of mana. The majority of the Mage spellbook does not have cooldowns associated with it, aside from the GCD. Same with Rogues, as the only thing stopping them from using an ability is the amount of Energy or CP they have. (excepting stuns, silences, etc obviously).

    Fury Warriors (at least prior to 4.0) were a cooldown limited class. If a Fury Warrior was not using an ability on any given GCD, it was because Bloodthirst and Whirlwind were on cooldown, and Slam had not proc'd. The chances of a Warrior not using either of the 3 abilities due to lack of rage was non-existant (excepting odd-ball circumstances, or bad playstyle). Ret Paladins are much the same way. The only way they can get low on mana is by doign things outside of their "normal" DPS rotation (such as healing, etc), the only thing stopping them from casting a DPS ability is if all abilities are on cooldown - not from lack of mana (resource).

    I don't foresee Warriors changing to a playstyle where we will have to wait on rage at any time other than the first 3 secs of a fight. If a Fury Warrior has to wait on Raging Blow, Bloodthirst or Slam because of lack of rage, something has gone wrong - such as being too liberal with HS, bad playstyle, or odd-ball encounter mechanics. I don't foresee Protection Warriors skipping on Devastate or Shockwave usage because they want to have enough rage left for the next Shield Slam.

    So long as you have resources (Rage) to use abilities as they come off cooldown, (Arms/Fury) or every GCD (Protection), you are not resource limited.
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  11. #11
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    So long as you have resources (Rage) to use abilities as they come off cooldown, (Arms/Fury) or every GCD (Protection), you are not resource limited.
    .....Yes...... hence why I said:

    Noticing what I have about our rage gen/ability cost.... we are a resource limited class. Provided tanks start avoiding substantial amounts of damage, our rage gen will be substantially lower and I can only guess that unless fury/arms damage scales substantially higher then we won't have 'infinite' rage.
    To put it bluntly: You heroic strike at the wrong time and you are rage starved. That to me is a resource limited class, just the same as a mage that burns through their mana too quickly.
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    Fury warrior > 100 rage

    Warrior mechanics don't make us wait to use an attack due to rage restrictions usually. Generally, though, they do force us to use different abilities in order to ensure we don't have to wait eventually. It might make you hold off on using heroic strike in order to ensure that you can get off that bloodthirst or whatever. Its resource does limit it. Just not by stopping all usage.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    To put it bluntly: You heroic strike at the wrong time and you are rage starved. That to me is a resource limited class, just the same as a mage that burns through their mana too quickly.
    I disagree that makes us resource limited. That makes you limited by your skill/knowledge, not by the resource of your class.

    HS has always supposed to have been a rage dump. HSing at the wrong time causing rage starvation is a player error, not game design. As above, it would be as if a Ret Paladin spammed heals until he was OOM, then could not use Crusader Strike. That doesn't make Ret Pallies as a class (subclass) resource limited, it makes that 1 Ret Pally unskilled.

    Using resources incorrectly does not make your class resource dependent. If you are using resources as you should, and you run out (Rogues/Kitties), then you are a resource dependent class.
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  14. #14
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    Your argument works the exact same way for rogues/kitties. A skilled player would arguably never run out of combo points/energy.

    Let's ditch the heroic strike analogy and look at another example: You dodge several hits in a row and shield slam... you now have 2 rage points and you dodge again giving you let's say 7 rage total.... you still can't do anything. How are you not, by definition, resource limited?
    Last edited by MellvarTank; 11-10-2010 at 02:18 PM.
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  15. #15
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    The way rage works, is a resource system that is very similar to energy if you think about it.
    Except that its regeneration rate revolves around a passive event; autoswings.

    While in 4.0, rogues will have probably a lot more regen than ever before, its likely for them to be limited by the resource they gain over time, but also funneled into finishing moves. While a warrior's main goal, is to reach infinite resource to only be held back by GCD because there are only resource cost abilities to play with.

    Ironically the hardest hitting ability is on its own GCD and is prioritized first, when the devs continuously try to design it to introduce rage management. With enough hit + haste and eventually crit, at high gear levels i will not be surprised to see warriors keeping inner rage for very large portions of fights. Add in the ridiculous scaling factors, and we'll once again out-scale everyone in the end.

    *maybe* if we had more than 100 cap to deal with, along with increased ability cost it could work out, however i always got the feeling that making it work based on a fluctuating passive event only made it something you need to get out of the way to play a warrior correctly.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    Your argument works the exact same way for rogues/kitties. A skilled player would arguably never run out of combo points/energy.
    It's not entirely about running out, it's also about how often it's used. Yes, a Rogue or Kitty could, in theory, never drop below say, 50 Energy. But that Rogue or Kitty would probably only be using 1/2 of their available GCDs. When they use abilities as they become available, the only limiting factor is Energy, not cooldowns. For the most part, Warriors are the opposite.
    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    Let's ditch the heroic strike analogy and look at another example: You dodge several hits in a row and shield slam... you now have 2 rage points and you dodge again giving you let's say 7 rage total.... you still can't do anything. How are you not, by definition, resource limited?
    I agree with you in theory, but I don't see that situation happening in any real circumstances. If a tank is avoiding several hits in a row they are either in content much below their gear level (the game isn't balanced for that), or some sort of gimmick fight. I can't think of many situations where tanks have high avoidance along with bosses hitting softly.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthalion View Post
    The way rage works, is a resource system that is very similar to energy if you think about it.
    Except that its regeneration rate revolves around a passive event; autoswings.
    It's very dissimilar to Energy. If a Rogue misses a white swing, all that's lost is the damage done from the white swing (plus maybe poison damage or something.) The Rogue can still press a special ability when it becomes available, as his resource is independent of his white damage.

    If a Warrior misses a white swing, he loses out on the damage of the white swing, plus the rage generation - which would have translated to a special ability. The Warrior can not press a special ability when it becomes available as he has no resources. A missed white swing is double penalized (lost white swing damage, plus future yellow damage).

    With Rogues and Energy, damage done is equal to your resource generation. More resources = more damage.

    With Warrior's it's the same way, except that your resource pool is equal to your damage done. So, doing more damage = more resources = more damage. Inversely to how we are double penalized for missing a white hit, we are double rewarded for doing a lot of white damage, giving us more resources to use more abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthalion View Post
    With enough hit + haste and eventually crit, at high gear levels i will not be surprised to see warriors keeping inner rage for very large portions of fights. Add in the ridiculous scaling factors, and we'll once again out-scale everyone in the end.
    I also would not be surprised if this happened. We are a cooldown limited class that gets a bonus based on how many resources we have. As far as I can tell, no other class has such a mechanic.
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  18. #18
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    Before 4.01 Fury especially was a resource based class and that was one of the main reason WHY they scaled so well... because that resource became practically unlimited and fury was able to dump it all, easily arms was not as good at it and no other dps class could do it.

    And you also have to compared rage as a resource to mana and energy... A pally was a CD limited class a rogue was a resource limited class but with a fixed regen of that resource. Now a fury warrior could spam HS when his WW and BT were on CD was able to increase the rate in which he gained rage either via damage, crits or abilities something no other class could do.

    All they have done with 4.01 is make it so we now HAVE to manage rage our resource. we still are a resourced based class as we have less ability to vary the way we gain that resource.

    Currently we are not limited by cooldowns at all, as I can quite easily press an ability each GCD and of slam procs it can end up wasted, the only limitation is rage generation.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andenthal View Post
    It's not entirely about running out, it's also about how often it's used. Yes, a Rogue or Kitty could, in theory, never drop below say, 50 Energy. But that Rogue or Kitty would probably only be using 1/2 of their available GCDs. When they use abilities as they become available, the only limiting factor is Energy, not cooldowns. For the most part, Warriors are the opposite.

    I agree with you in theory, but I don't see that situation happening in any real circumstances. If a tank is avoiding several hits in a row they are either in content much below their gear level (the game isn't balanced for that), or some sort of gimmick fight. I can't think of many situations where tanks have high avoidance along with bosses hitting softly.
    Whether it could happen ever fight or 1 fight in 100 it does prove that the class is a resource based one and not a GCD based one. Hell best example is prot, you run out of rage you can do nothing... but you ALWAYS have an ability to use.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakari View Post
    Before 4.01 Fury especially was a resource based class...<snip>... because that resource became practically unlimited
    How can a class be "resource limited" if the resource itself becomes "practically unlimited"?
    Pre-4.0 Fury Warriors (Warriors in general I'm arguing) were not dependant upon rage regenerating to use any ability on any given GCD. The only thing stopping them from pressing a button on any given GCD was what abilities were on cooldown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shakari View Post
    Whether it could happen ever fight or 1 fight in 100 it does prove that the class is a resource based one and not a GCD based one.
    It does matter. There's 1 fight in WotLK where it's quite common for a Holy Paladin (or any mana user really) to run out of mana - regardless of what they do. By that arguement, WotLK Holy Paladins (or mana users) should be concerned about their mana running dry on all encounters.
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