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Thread: Wait, [warrior] tanks are speccing into blood craze now?

  1. #21
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    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=11356&e=11617

    This weeks Sindragosa , It healed a bit more than the 41k I mentioned in one of the earlier posts although not by a huge amount.

    I didnt main tank on every fight this week.

    Spreading the duties around helps keep the tank team happy.

    Im not sure if it is just down the the logging site but from everything the log shows it just doesnt proc alot at all on boses.

    My only explaination for it, was down to Blocking not proccing Blood Craze

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sifer View Post
    Given it does only proc after a hit that does help with it being more effective healing and that it scales with Health even better.

    If your not going to be blocking or avoiding most attacks it would have a decent uptime.

    Its that its counter to what you would want from a talent I dont like.

    About swapping it for a threat talent, I agree threat with vengence stacked up when figthing a raid boss is at a situation when you can pretty much afk the later half of fights.

    Burst threat is however still slow even with MD's and tricks especially if you open up with BL and the dps nuke with everything they have.
    i dont care how much you crit in the first 10 seconds of the fight.. it could be 100%... the attacks are still based on attack power. a crit ss will hit for about 7-14 k without vengeance stacked ( 7 without shield block, 14 with).

    part of the point here is blocked attacks still accound for "any damage taken" so blocked attacks are still on the table.

    for a more detailed picture:

    -we will use a 60-40 ratio magic/melee

    with a 2 sec swing timer, assume 30% of melee attacks were avoided or blocked.

    30% of 40% = 12% of total attacks that will not proc the ability.

    88% of damage taken procs the ability.

    for fights like cindy, 70% of all damage is magic damage.. that means roughly 8% of damage taken is subject to not proc the ability.

    i still see this ability as nothing but a big help
    "Dear Santoro, Your wisdom has enlightened me. Thanks!"

  3. #23
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    Yeah maybe Sindragosa wasnt the best example which is why I check other bosses aswell.

    That is however a pretty much 1 tank fight till the end phase aswell as being one of the longer fights.

    I dont doubt that for you, you may have more use of it than me but other than for trash it seems a very poor return for me personally.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sifer View Post
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=11356&e=11617

    This weeks Sindragosa , It healed a bit more than the 41k I mentioned in one of the earlier posts although not by a huge amount.

    I didnt main tank on every fight this week.

    Spreading the duties around helps keep the tank team happy.

    Im not sure if it is just down the the logging site but from everything the log shows it just doesnt proc alot at all on boses.

    My only explaination for it, was down to Blocking not proccing Blood Craze
    from what i see


    your guild is pro at this fight..

    the entire fight was under 6 minutes.

    so less time on the rng

    furthermore, the fight is split tanked , taking what looks like 33% of the fights occuring damage off of you.

    in percentage healing done, you actually beat my cindy attempts by a full 1%.. the proc rate was actually better for you, however, the environments were very different..
    "Dear Santoro, Your wisdom has enlightened me. Thanks!"

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sifer View Post
    Yeah maybe Sindragosa wasnt the best example which is why I check other bosses aswell.

    That is however a pretty much 1 tank fight till the end phase aswell as being one of the longer fights.

    I dont doubt that for you, you may have more use of it than me but other than for trash it seems a very poor return for me personally.

    but its not a 1 tank fight. you took roughly 1.4mill damage, the other tank took roughly 700k. unless hes really bad at iceblocks ( which cant be the case, otherwise he would be dead), the proc rate is still inline with the projections. mathmaticly, theres no reason i can discover to not take it.
    "Dear Santoro, Your wisdom has enlightened me. Thanks!"

  6. #26
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    The fight was short I agree however that is one of the longer fights hence why I chose that fight , The previous week was the 6 minute one, I know the fights are RNG but I have very little to no procs on all the bosses and thats been the case as far as I can tell since taking the talent after the patch.

    The healing done by Blood Craze on that Sindra Kill was about 3% of my damage which yes its healing but that accounts for less than 4 average Flash of lights, of which over half of the Blood Craze healing was Overheal.
    Last edited by Sifer; 11-12-2010 at 10:37 AM.

  7. #27
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    10% is 10% no matter how you look at it.. your still accounting for 4-5% of overall healing done, your still helping your healers by normallizing the damage incomming

    what did you expect? your self healing to account for 25% of overall healing? lol the ability isnt ment to be op, its ment to circumvent large damage spikes, which its doing well for your healers.
    "Dear Santoro, Your wisdom has enlightened me. Thanks!"

  8. #28
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    I guess I expected a little bit more the proc chance just seems a little low and I was hoping to see into maybe the 6 figure heals.

    It wasnt far off a one tank fight im just pretty good on blocks and was in frost ress gear so didnt spike as bad in the final phase.

    Biogi only took 4 melee hits In the whole fight which is about a 10% of what I took and he took 0 cleaves.

    Either way Its upto everyone to make their mind up on the Talent and I still dont think personally its all that great.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sifer View Post
    I guess I expected a little bit more the proc chance just seems a little low and I was hoping to see into maybe the 6 figure heals.

    It wasnt far off a one tank fight im just pretty good on blocks and was in frost ress gear so didnt spike as bad in the final phase.

    Biogi only took 4 melee hits In the whole fight which is about a 10% of what I took and he took 0 cleaves.

    Either way Its upto everyone to make their mind up on the Talent and I still dont think personally its all that great.
    my logs and a few others who have posted show 6 figure heals. but low 6s... not 500k. thats just op.. paladins lost the argent o ship button because it was op. 500k self heals would also be op.

    and it may seem small, but in reality, he took 30% of the damage.

    all im saying is that several of the oppinions your making arent supported by the math behind the confrentations. by no means am i saying " YOU MUST LIKE THIS!!"... not at all.. im just trying to give you perspective on what your looking at.

    if you have a fight spicific gear set for every fight in the game and you havent died in icc since the 20% buff then awsome. you have the content on farm and do what ever makes you happy. specing for threat or survival really makes zero difference at that point. but if your working on h 25 lk or ruby, and your seeing huge damage spikes like everyone else working on those fights, or if your still running icc as progression content, then the ability is more or less a staple in your spec.

    finally, there is a threat multiplier on bloodcraze.. wartotem did the workup in the warr threat values thread.
    "Dear Santoro, Your wisdom has enlightened me. Thanks!"

  10. #30
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    I thinks thats the key point, if your healers are having no problems keeping you topped off the talent is pretty worthless. But in the same logic, if you're not having aggro problems then the alternatives to BC are pretty meh.

    Yours Sifer was up for 23% of the fight, that not exactly bad uptime, with only 3 seconds or so where you overwrit the proc

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    I thinks thats the key point, if your healers are having no problems keeping you topped off the talent is pretty worthless. But in the same logic, if you're not having aggro problems then the alternatives to BC are pretty meh.

    Yours Sifer was up for 23% of the fight, that not exactly bad uptime, with only 3 seconds or so where you overwrit the proc


    i havent seen anyone with real threat problems since 4.0. only snap threat, which has to do with vengeance and nothing else. its just how the game is designed right now. the most common problem right now is keeping tanks alive.

    but i do agree, that if you over gear the content your raiding, options at this point are pretty much meh
    "Dear Santoro, Your wisdom has enlightened me. Thanks!"

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umadbro View Post
    Honestly this is a degraded version of blood draining. Ok, come cata when healers will apparantly be mana conserving I can see a use for it.

    The ONLY time this talent will be useful at 80 is if you are fortunate enough to have it proc at low health with no incomming heals for a second as overhealing pretty much renders this useless for the majority of the fight. It's 10% so even in ICC now that's 7-8k health over 5 sec or 1.6 a tick.

    Looking at the scenerio now, burst threat tends to be the bigger issue especially in a tight dps fight, so it would seem like war accademy or cruelty would be the better option.
    As a tank your primary goal is to survive. This means self healing talents are practically mandatory if you are min/maxing for progression (unless Blizzard guts them to the point they suck). The couple talents you could pick up over these self healing ones are not going to make you some sort of tank threat god or awesome DPS. Frankly if your having threat issues you either have a L2Play problem or Blizzard is bending you over currently.

    In any event if your not progression tanking then you don't need to min/max and will be able to handle normal modes just fine with whatever spec you feel the best with (blizzard has said as much).
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  13. #33
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    Just a lil' tip for you warrior tanks who want a bit more threat on pulls - use recklessness before the pull.

    Granted, it looks "OMG, I'll take more damage", but it's usually just one or two hits with 20% damage more on you. On a pull, healers can usually cope with that, and your brust threat will do wonders. Not to mention it also rises your vegence faster

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nehama View Post
    Just a lil' tip for you warrior tanks who want a bit more threat on pulls - use recklessness before the pull.

    Granted, it looks "OMG, I'll take more damage", but it's usually just one or two hits with 20% damage more on you. On a pull, healers can usually cope with that, and your brust threat will do wonders. Not to mention it also rises your vegence faster
    Correct me if I am wrong but last I checked you have to be in Zerker stance to use Recklessness. So not only are you taking +20% damage from Reck, your taking an additional 10% from the stance. +30% EXTRA damage off the pull is not something a tank should be trying to accomplish.

    Its much safer to tell the DPS to hold their wad for a couple of seconds or simply laugh at them when they face plant.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  15. #35
    Any healing should be useful, but I'm having a hard time seeing where a very unreliable HoT with low uptime on bosses is going to be all that interesting, regardless of how much it actually heals for over the course of a night. It won't scale very well with gear at all or will scale negatively (More HP = bigger HoT, but more avoidance = fewer procs) and it probably only contributes to other healers' overhealing.

    Granted, that's assuming the WotLK model. If Cataclysm really does have a much slower paced "not always topped off" damage model for tanks, then yeah I can see where the HoT might be useful. Still not really all that sold on it.

    Just a lil' tip for you warrior tanks who want a bit more threat on pulls - use recklessness before the pull.
    It's true that you'll probably burn through the Recklessness charges - and thus the 20% damage debuff - within 2/3 globals. But I'd still rather not take 20% more damage to get a few crits. If someone is having so much trouble with threat that they're willing to do that, they need to talk to their DPS or work on their own TPS.
    Last edited by Bovinity; 11-13-2010 at 08:32 AM.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    Any healing should be useful, but I'm having a hard time seeing where a very unreliable HoT with low uptime on bosses is going to be all that interesting, regardless of how much it actually heals for over the course of a night. It won't scale very well with gear at all or will scale negatively (More HP = bigger HoT, but more avoidance = fewer procs) and it probably only contributes to other healers' overhealing.

    Granted, that's assuming the WotLK model. If Cataclysm really does have a much slower paced "not always topped off" damage model for tanks, then yeah I can see where the HoT might be useful. Still not really all that sold on it.



    It's true that you'll probably burn through the Recklessness charges - and thus the 20% damage debuff - within 2/3 globals. But I'd still rather not take 20% more damage to get a few crits. If someone is having so much trouble with threat that they're willing to do that, they need to talk to their DPS or work on their own TPS.
    slice it, dice it, do what ever you want with it.. its still a 10% proc rate. all the math ive done above is as of today, so speaking relative to todays raiding environment,rule #1 is always survivability. the dynamic of surviving has changed slightly, in that spike damage is much more present. any blanket effect is aid to your healers that are trying to handle keeping you alive, and that is what seems to be the intention of the proc. ive seen tanks drop to 3k health in h lk fights, and ruby, and any boss that is still considered progression. the same applies to anyone who dosnt overgear the conent they are running. sure, its not op. but i remember being pretty pissed that paladins were prefered over warriors in much of wrath simply because the AD proc ment even if the tank made a mistake, a passive ability would save the day. at least now we are getting some attention. this is kind of like saying " damage shield wasnt worth it" . bc also have a threat multiplier.

    as for snap threat, aggro is not a problem today unless your dps are well.... bad. I belive vengeance is going to redefine raiding in wow. OMEN, aggro reducing abilities, efficient target changing, and so on, are all going to reshape what " a good dps" means to a raid. this machanic has been neglected for a long time now, and blizzard has made clear that the current format is not what was intended.

    reckless not only breaks rule #1, but also results in less then expected returns.

    assuming your 3 crits are ss, dev, and hs ( if rev isnt procd) your looking at a 7-14k ss(depending on the use of sb), a 4-6k dev, and roughly the same for hs.

    that is not going to hold aggro off a fire breathing mage, a heroic strike smacking fury warrior, or a star falling boomkin. its just not going to happen.

    in terms of survival, its kinda like roulette. because if your spot healer is cought off guard, your eaither forced to waste a cd or die.

    as for cata, ive heard all sorts of things.. bc will proc vr, and things like that, but until cata hits theres no use in speculating. there is almost an infinate number of possibilities that blizz can throw at us given the changes they are implementing. but theres no use in dabating them at this time.
    "Dear Santoro, Your wisdom has enlightened me. Thanks!"

  17. #37
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    Just going to preface this: I've only used Blood Craze to MT Halion top side and farm old bosses/dungeons solo.

    On Halion I tank the dragon and the big inferno up top for several minutes and it ends up only healing 30-70k with 75% overheal (along with field dressing). This is a situation where threat/dmg talents are mostly irrelevant, and also where you have fewer healers than most raids. It might be amazing tanking bottom (twilight realm), but then a DK owns that which is what my guild uses.The healing in old dungeons is amazing I must say. It might be useful on a few lower WotLK fights, but then they are easy to heal anyway.

    Now for the dope: On every other fight in the expansion you should be going for max damage/threat.

    In the current build of the game you don't need that much survival boost, you need to burn the bosses/adds down down. ICC has been out for coming up on a year and subject to several other nerfs. RS is easy as hell on normal, and heroic is mostly a focus issue. You don't get records on WoL from buying field dressing/blood craze or even gag order. I spec into those only for my role on Halion - if I were on adds I would use a very different build.

    I would only use time theorycrafting on this once lvl 85 raiding starts. For now, I would use a single-target boss spec emphasizing heroic strike/shield slam damage and an aoe spec (w/blood and thunder, war academy, thunderstruck).

  18. #38
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    I spec BC+FD

    I scored 4th for Prot warriors on Val10 HC on WoL. I don't beleive as Prot i should be going out there with the aim to be ranked on WoL doesn't tell me anything, i could be doing all kinds of bad tanking to get my DPS up.

    Nevertheless the value of this BC is entirely dependant on your healers, the stronger your healers are the weaker the talent is, and vice versa. If you out gear the content then yes, survivabilty isn't an issue so this talent is crap. when survivabilty is an issue this talent is golden.

    and BnT is still meh, other than P1 LK where you don't burn the adds its either end up with all the adds dead before you can get more than a tic or two of rend.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    when survivabilty is an issue this talent is golden.
    That really sums it up, right there.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by santoro2984 View Post
    i really cant see giving up this tallent for threat. im pumping out 35-40k tps as it is with vengeance stacked.
    ^ This man knows his stuff. Threat shouldn't be an issue for any prot warriors if you're doing it right. In fights like H Sindy, I've had Blood Craze proc and save my life from her melee swings, and got healed up before the next Frost Breath.
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