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Thread: Wait, [warrior] tanks are speccing into blood craze now?

  1. #1
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    Wait, [warrior] tanks are speccing into blood craze now?

    Honestly this is a degraded version of blood draining. Ok, come cata when healers will apparantly be mana conserving I can see a use for it.

    The ONLY time this talent will be useful at 80 is if you are fortunate enough to have it proc at low health with no incomming heals for a second as overhealing pretty much renders this useless for the majority of the fight. It's 10% so even in ICC now that's 7-8k health over 5 sec or 1.6 a tick.

    Looking at the scenerio now, burst threat tends to be the bigger issue especially in a tight dps fight, so it would seem like war accademy or cruelty would be the better option.

  2. #2
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    Being that there currently is no 'spam' healer left in the game, care to back this up with some math?
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  3. #3
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    I have been thinking of speccing out of Blood Craze after going over the WOL of recent raids.

    On trash it doesnt do bad since I am getting hit alot.

    However come bosses which is when your actually going to need the healing, certainly in end game tanking gear, it just doesnt cut it.

    I was healed 15k by Blood Craze on PP hc when I was tanking PP for phases 1 and 2 aswell as probably 40% to half of phase 3.

    41k on Sindragosa Hc.

    Yes its maybe bonus healing and added survivavility but I see it as very poor return for 3 Talent Points when it comes to use in a raid setting.

    Im sure it has a bit more uptime in 5 mans but given 5 mans at the moment and the lack of aoe tanking in the expansion It might not get any better.

    Other places to spend the points?

    The choices as I see It would be 3 points in War Academy or 1 in War Academy and 2 in Cruelty.

    Having checked the numbers from logs I seem to be running at around 10-11% crit shield slams in raids.

    So 2 points in Cruelty would pretty much double my crit chance with the extra 5% damage on HS for the left over point, as an added benefit, it just seems to be the way to go.

    Guess this calls for some testing.

    Come the expansion, I can only really see the talent being of more than a little benefit to survivability if bosses hit very fast like the dual wielding bosses we have had only occasionally in wotlk, Algalon, Twin Valk's while a shield is up etc
    Last edited by Sifer; 11-10-2010 at 09:29 PM.

  4. #4
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    Don't forget that there is a nerf incoming in a future patch (from 9% to 3.6% with field dressing). So you ticks with clvl 85 won't be much higher than your ticks outside of icc: about 1kish.

  5. #5
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    Well as soon as I shut down my pc It hit me why I would be seeing quite so low healing.

    I thought maybe partial hits eg Blocks would be proc the heal.

    I guess that isnt the case.

    Given the amount of avoidence I have and that I have quite a bit of mastery, although not quite unhittable, That would have drastically reduced my non blocked or non avoided attacks.

    Given the avoidence and mastery rating required per percent looks like its going to increase quite steeply in the expansion we should see a bigger amount of heals once the expansion comes with the talent getting progressively less procs as we get better and better gear and closer and closer to unhittable again.

    So I will spec out of it now and then maybe test it out again at level 85.

  6. #6
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    I still dont believe its worth speccing out of blood craze , it will be very powerful when you have like 150k hp(even with the nerf to beta blood craze) and its takes a healers 3 max rank heals to top you off, but from what i heard from speaking to healers is that blizzard has greatly exaggerated the mana will matter thing. IN beta right now, palas are spamming what ever heal they want once they start getting some epics, they claim tank damage isnt very bursty and is relatively low, allowing them to never really worry about mana once they get rid of some blues. Read the article on hydramist if you want to know more.

    heres an extract...

    /start
    Gear Changes Everything

    There have been a few phases of premade characters thus far in the beta, from fresh 85s to fully raid geared (non-heroic) characters. The latest premade characters, having full raid epics, are so strong that mana conservation is pretty much gone.
    I know gear is supposed to make things easier, but literally you can end fights with full mana… at least as a Paladin. With mana becoming this much of a joke during the first tier of raiding is pretty concerning. All of the initial epic pieces give healers a ton of Spirit, through set bonuses or procs. You can reforge out of spirit and into throughput stats instead. Even still, you’ll have more than enough mana to play with…
    Making mana matter is, in my opinion, never going to play out throughout an entire expansion. Initially, we’re going to need to watch our mana bar. As we pick up epic gear, things will get so ridiculous in terms of regen that choice of which spell you use if going to be your only concern.


    /end
    Last edited by Krays; 11-11-2010 at 08:06 AM.
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  7. #7
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    Assuming that what Krays said is just a beta balancing issue, which will be corrected on live:

    My thought was that at 80, with mana still not at a premium for healers, blood craze would be a lot of overheal (or push the healer's heals into overheal). I'd definitely take it for progression raiding at 85, or even for solo leveling as prot, or solo farming older content.

    Right now though, my prot warrior skipped it.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krays View Post
    Gear Changes Everything

    There have been a few phases of premade characters thus far in the beta, from fresh 85s to fully raid geared (non-heroic) characters. The latest premade characters, having full raid epics, are so strong that mana conservation is pretty much gone.
    I know gear is supposed to make things easier, but literally you can end fights with full mana… at least as a Paladin. With mana becoming this much of a joke during the first tier of raiding is pretty concerning. All of the initial epic pieces give healers a ton of Spirit, through set bonuses or procs. You can reforge out of spirit and into throughput stats instead. Even still, you’ll have more than enough mana to play with…
    Making mana matter is, in my opinion, never going to play out throughout an entire expansion. Initially, we’re going to need to watch our mana bar. As we pick up epic gear, things will get so ridiculous in terms of regen that choice of which spell you use if going to be your only concern.


    /end
    That only strengthens the arguemnt for us to specc out of blood craze, since just as the poster above has pointed out, most of it will be overheal, and the rare occasions it will not, it will simply be infused and forgotten amoung the "steady damage" and huge heals tanks are receiving.

  9. #9
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    it will simply be infused and forgotten amoung the "steady damage" and huge heals tanks are receiving.
    Which is the point exactly. If you notice it, it is over powered whereas if you don't, then it is well balanced. If it does nothing, then it is worthless. The last time I used it and victory rush in a spec, it out-performed victory rush substantially.

    I'm not saying it makes a huge difference, I'm saying wait until cata goes live before you write off the talent or at least have some kind of math to back it up instead of just claiming it is crap.
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  10. #10
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    I was surprised. Last night it accounted for 3.7% of total effective healing done on me during the Lich King. A total of 173k healing, or 125k effective healing. By comparison, Flash of light did only 346k effective healing to me during the fight, which was the highest healing ability used on me.

    http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/17004453#damageout
    Last edited by Reev; 11-12-2010 at 09:11 AM.
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  11. #11
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    That is a decent amount of healing.

    I havent checked out you on the new armory to see what mastery you have, and sadly I dont use WMO so I have no idea how to find blocked hits or even if its possible to find them.

    Im around 5 or 6% block above you if I use the block amount on the old armory and noticed a dramatic difference in the amount healed.

    In terms of healing , dont forget you also got heals from the Beacon which means you were getting healed quite possibly with the Other tank getting the flash of light.

    Also Paladins use a bigger variety of heals now than they did previously.

    But as I mentioned a few posts above, the skill's usefulness varies alot dependant on gear and especially the level of mastery you have.

    For me atleast until I overgear the content less its not really worth the points.

    As with everything that may not be the case for you.

  12. #12
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    Yeah, it's possible I got lucky with the procs, and very likely that the 6% difference in block causes a major difference as well.

    I wasn't suggesting that Blood craze was close to the paladin's total heals or anything. I took healing from a very wide variety of spells, and flash of light in actuality, while the greatest source, only accounted for 14% of my total healing.

    Still, at my gear level, which is respectable for guilds doing normal Lich King, Blood Craze isn't an insignificant amount of healing. At least until the nerf. Possibly that's why they're nerfing it, since we'll take more normal hits at the beginning of level 85, probably increasing the value of the talent significantly.
    Kathy, I said, "I'm lost" though I knew she was sleeping
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    Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike
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  13. #13
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    i have 79k hp buffed in icc.

    7.5% = 5925 per proc.

    the avg fight lasts 7 minutes.

    with a 2 second swing timer that 30 melee attacks per minute and 210 per fight

    at a 10% proc, that roughly 21 procs per fight ( and this assumes a short fight)

    thats roughly 124,425 healing per fight. ( NOT considering magic damage)

    this assumes your NOT specd into field dressing, which i am. someone else can work out the added 20% effect.

    note: are wow logs accounting for bloodcraze? also, dose it account for the 20% added effect from field dressing? my logs indicate a percentage of healing done my be as "other" with no breakdown of spells.
    often, the numbers there are in line with the above calculations. often, they are closer to 150K ( field dressings effect on blood craze?)

    this is all very rough math, as some fights are much longer, some fights have frenzy whereas haste is buffed, exct. but unless my calculations are out right wrong, 125k per fight seems worth while to me. as specially considering the presence of avoidance and more spike damage.

    i really cant see giving up this tallent for threat. im pumping out 35-40k tps as it is with vengeance stacked.
    "Dear Santoro, Your wisdom has enlightened me. Thanks!"

  14. #14
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    specially considering the presence of avoidance and more spike damage.
    An avoided hit is a hit that won't proc blood craze, which will change your numbers. To be honest, avoidance will devalue this talent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    An avoided hit is a hit that won't proc blood craze, which will change your numbers. To be honest, avoidance will devalue this talent.
    I understand that, i wasnt implying that avoided hits proc bloodcraze. i was just saying that with so much more spike damage, any blanket healing effect is going to bennifit healers and tanks.
    "Dear Santoro, Your wisdom has enlightened me. Thanks!"

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by santoro2984 View Post
    I understand that, i wasnt implying that avoided hits proc bloodcraze. i was just saying that with so much more spike damage, any blanket healing effect is going to bennifit healers and tanks.
    Santoro, you can look at the WMO log I linked above. It includes Blood Craze. It did approximately 170k healing on the Lich King, ~45k of which was overheal.

    Sipher made the point that I'm in mostly 264 gear with a couple 251s, and in his 277s with ~6% more block chance, he was seeing far smaller Blood Craze numbers.
    Kathy, I said, "I'm lost" though I knew she was sleeping
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  17. #17
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    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k.../0/?enc=bosses

    That's my healing taken over last nights little bit of fun in ICC10HC, Blood craze come in as my third largest source of healing by spell being 11.3% of my healing taken, with a mere 14% overheal, and 15% uptime on boss fights.

    I am mainly in 264s with the occiasional 277, and have at present 37.08% avoidance, 41.3% block going off my character sheet (unbuffed), with blocks avearging a 42.8% damage reduction. Dunno how much that will affect BC proccing but i am fairly sure it can proc off Blocks;
    [19:02:46.155] Risen Archmage hits Tengenstein 4813 (O: -1, B: 2063)
    [19:02:46.167] Tengenstein gains Blood Craze from Tengenstein

    and partial resists;
    [19:11:39.079] Gluttonous Abomination Gut Spray Tengenstein 2026 (O: -1, R: 250)
    [19:11:39.445] Lucita Prayer of Mending Tengenstein +4182
    [19:11:40.101] Tengenstein gains Blood Craze from Tengenstein
    [19:11:40.101] Gluttonous Abomination Gut Spray Tengenstein 1801 (O: -1, R: 500)

    I like it, i don't find threat an issue, or at least threat isn't an issue as often as me dying is. In the balance of things, I tend to die more often due to lack of heals, than i do becuase a mob broke loose and twatted a raid member.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 11-12-2010 at 11:04 AM. Reason: Fail copy pasted

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    Santoro, you can look at the WMO log I linked above. It includes Blood Craze. It did approximately 170k healing on the Lich King, ~45k of which was overheal.

    Sipher made the point that I'm in mostly 264 gear with a couple 251s, and in his 277s with ~6% more block chance, he was seeing far smaller Blood Craze numbers.

    I do NOT know how blocked attacks work into the equation. but i would assume "after taking ANY damage" implies that includes blocked attacks, because damage was infact taken. avoidance is different. you avoided that attack, and took no damage. i dont think blizz is as silly to exclude blocked attacks and list in the tool tip " after taking any damage".

    sure, avoidance takes about 30# of melee attacks off the table, but in almost all fights, 30% or much more of the damage taken is magic damage, which cant be avoided, so the calculation still holds.

    also consider your not using worldoflogs.com. your using another site. perhaps your site is updated and wowlogs isnt.

    but to say that 6% block is making that much of a difference, id have to see proof of that. im in all 264/277 gear. and the returns im seeing above are inline with my calculations above.
    "Dear Santoro, Your wisdom has enlightened me. Thanks!"

  19. #19
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    Given it does only proc after a hit that does help with it being more effective healing and that it scales with Health even better.

    If your not going to be blocking or avoiding most attacks it would have a decent uptime.

    Its that its counter to what you would want from a talent I dont like.

    About swapping it for a threat talent, I agree threat with vengence stacked up when figthing a raid boss is at a situation when you can pretty much afk the later half of fights.

    Burst threat is however still slow even with MD's and tricks especially if you open up with BL and the dps nuke with everything they have.

  20. #20
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    it does proc from Blocks however, probably shares the same proc mechanic as UO stacking does

    EDIT; but yeah if you Overgear the content there's no point, might as well maximise your DPS once your survivability has reached the nigh unkillable level.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 11-12-2010 at 11:19 AM.

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