The Cataclystic Protection Warrior Spreadsheet

[Tengenstein]

A quick test on some wildhammer warbrands shows SS threat is ~3x damage at present. So yeah tooltip is speaking ballocks.

[kopcap]

Ye Kaze, its now seems to be gibbed with 2 points in imp revenge.

However, this goes against my single target logs. Rev still beats dev from what I see in my logs by a good margin. Can someone confirm / deny this please?

Booi, I am pretty sure your doing yourself is disfavor by delaying the SB. I understand where your coming from, but 30-35 sec mark is that exact time where DPS is at the risk of dying. And if you delay SB it simply wont be up by then, your losing on a ton of burst at the most critical moment.

Thing that worries me the most is CB to be honest. Whats the point of having it now if its useless at the start.

[Kojiyama]

Pretty sure it's just the tooltip catching up to the fact that Shield Slam's invisible 30% bonus threat multiplier from Wrath was removed a while back.

(It's also possible they changed or removed the static threat bonus as well on PTR. Would need to test to find out.)

[Tengenstein]

Ye Kaze, its now seems to be gibbed with 2 points in imp revenge.

However, this goes against my single target logs. Rev still beats dev from what I see in my logs by a good margin. Can someone confirm / deny this please?

keep in mind that the sheet calculates and adds Deep Wounds damage to the crit damage of each ability. this is somewhat difficult to accuratly judge from logs. IIRC DW ticks once per second, so for every crit you have add 6 times your locks average deep wounds tick damage to your total damage from that ability.

which on my most recent V&T log still has revenge slightly higher than devastate (by about 600 damage per use), however on that log my crit rate on dev is well below the expected rate (by nearly a third), and revenge's crit rate is up (by almost half again) to what one should expect from my buffed character sheet, alas small sample sizes and RNG

Thing that worries me the most is CB to be honest. Whats the point of having it now if its useless at the start.

To stun trash....and unlock vigilance. So pretty much back to where we were in 3.2

[Booi]

I always see that on logs as well teng. What I assume happens is:
When you're not tanking you're spamming devastate with no vengeance.
When you are tanking you're hitting revenge with lots of vengeance.

I have never really isolated tanking time stamps to look at the variation. It's easier to trust wartotem, but even he might be human.

[Airowird]

Devastate & Revenge I've tested to death & you can see the difference more clearly by removing Sword & Board talent points, taking away the +15% crit from Devastate.

[kopcap]

I think your right Booi, I just spent some time running around hitting the Problim. Around 15 vengeance, Dev was hitting harder.

ps Went through the first minute on Chogall. It seems consistent with spreadsheet.

[Booi]

Devastate & Revenge I've tested to death & you can see the difference more clearly by removing Sword & Board talent points, taking away the +15% crit from Devastate.

Decidedly not human

[Tengenstein]

If SnB affected Rev as well as Dev, or If Rev couldn't be dodged or parried... Revenge I mourn for thee

[Airowird]

Rev piercing dodge/parry would definately work for me, so it stay different from being a cheaper Devastate.
Also, Rev/Dev testing was during a time when I had hours to fill each day, so it was human of me to fill it with something useful... right??

[Kojiyama]

Personally, I just think they need to bump up the scaling of Revenge and make Improved Revenge have a smaller multiplier. Really, the base damage of Revenge right now is way, way too low to even be logical for a cooldown-based, triggered ability. Revenge should be a really powerful button to hit by default, otherwise it has little point. There's no reason for it to need to be propped up in such a dramatic way by a talent.

That said, dodge/parry avoidance on it would be a great and logical addition.

(And, as someone mentioned above, it's really Deep Wounds on the default version of the sheet that pushes Devastate beyond talented Revenge. The higher crit rate leads to over twice as much benefit from Deep Wounds as the other abilities.)

[Tengenstein]

I think it needs to be propped up on talents, otherwise you end up up with an Arms warrior in Def stance for something else, laying down a nice fat revenge on some pesky rogue in PVP.

Hell, even letting Rev hit one target twice if a second target isn't in range would sort it out, or if a Rev directly after an SnB SS was an autocrit. You could make alot of "interesting" type talents that aren't straight increase damage of Rev by X that blizz has fallen out of love with. At present imp revenge might as well read " following a dodge block or parry, you next devastate has its cost reduced by 66%"

[Katzazi]

It would have to be extremely better than now, to get an Arms warrior to switch to Def stance just to push Revenge. I doubt that we are speaking about such a high baseline increase.

Revenge would not be up as often for Arms anyway. Arms does not block at all and parry and dodge seldom. Even when it's up it has to be better than any other ability available to the warrior at that moment - for the cost of most of the rage the warrior has at the moment. So the warrior would have to realize that Revenge is up, no other ability that does more dmg is up (that's dependent on how much Revenge does) and that rage is low enough. Than it needs two stance switches. To be honest, I don't see a balance-problem for Arms-PVP there. Since the amount of skill and situational costs needed to include Revenge into arms is so high, that it would not be spammed anyway. And it cannot be included in a high burst sequence (you cannot force it to be up and you will not have much rage afterwards).

[Tengenstein]

I'm not saying arms would go def to use revenge, but that when arms goes def for another reason, and its not that uncommon an event in PVP, it would have access to something rather good. which would be a problem I'd rather avoid.

With two points in tactical mastery I retain up to 50 rage, and if i'm above 50 rage I tend to burn it offwith HS, so stance dancing is no where as costly as it was in wrath. I can do it (and do do it) with total disregard to rage. It's also not particualrily difficult with decent macros. You can force proc revenge as Arms as it also has access to shield block, and generaly will get at least one Block out of it in time to switch back to a 2 hander.

All it takes is some good, and readily available, macros for gear swaps and stance dancing, nothing any decent Arms PVP player doesn't already have.

Putting a Rev buff on a deep Prot talent makes it only beneficial to prot warriors and thus easier to balance and less likely to be shot down due to some wierd interplay with another spec in a totally unconnected scenario.

[Kojiyama]

As far as I'm aware, Revenge shares a cooldown with Overpower (and always has, from what I remember)--so I highly doubt any Arms Warrior would choose to Revenge in the majority of cases.

[Katzazi]

Sure you stance-dance a lot as arms warrior and you can do a lot with macros. To have this macros and use them well is part of the "skill" I mentioned. Even with macros set up, you have to use them. But the thing with revenge is, that you have to get a block/parry/dodge to get it up. So it's only usable against melee classes to begin with, and even with SB up you don't get the proc instantly. So the only time where you may want to use it as arms (if ever) would be while you are sitting in def stance for some GCDs. While you are doing this, you don't have access to your most dangerous abilities and you are probably wearing a shield. So your dmg output at this time is comparable low to begin with. I don't see a problem if Arms would use a boosted Revenge then.

[Tengenstein]

I've gone back to Imp.revenge, and my Dreaming/wishlist/delusional thinking is I'm really good at burning rage and thus every 3 revenges i've saved enough rage for an additional heroic strike....

I do find that without Rev in the rotation i am finding alot more periods of not having to HS on CD and aren't in the situation that i use IR on near CD either. Is it possible that we could be missing a trick here in that while Devastate has additional damage from Deep wounds, revenge has a hidden increased damage from allowing more HS over a fight? granted it's only 4 more per minute at the very most but given that HS is only behaind SW and HT past 50% vengence (15kAP)?

[Kojiyama]

Depends on a few factors, I guess. I keep meaning to model Rage to factor this stuff out but every time I start on it I usually find that, mathematically, we have pretty close to infinite Rage. Realistically, though, there are ebbs and flows since a lot of our excess Rage is proc-based and therefore a bit inconsistent.

I ended up macroing Inner Rage with Shield Block due to the synergy with Shield Spec and found that worked pretty well for normalizing my rage intake a bit.

But I will have a go at the numbers again just to do some checking.

[Booi]

I ended up macroing Inner Rage with Shield Block due to the synergy with Shield Spec and found that worked pretty well for normalizing my rage intake a bit.

Do we know how soft an incoming hit must be before a blocked attack generates more rage than an unblocked?

[Kojiyama]

I haven't tested it recently, but I was under the impression based on blue posts that Rage was based on base incoming damage with mitigated damage not having any effect on the rage gained. Therefore, blocking with Shield Spec should always be a gain on top of the base rage value.

That may not be the case now, though. Would need to do some testing to find out.