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Thread: cooldowns - a rough overview

  1. #1
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    cooldowns - a rough overview

    It's hard to keep track of all changes in the latest cata/ptr/live builds.. so here's a cooldowns list of our beloved tanks. Standing: 2010-11-03

    Death Knight (-13.52% damage taken until you can't spend your Blood Runes for 10s+ => -8%)
    • Bone Shield -20% dmg taken as long as at least one charge is up (3 charges, cost: 1 unholy rune, 60s cd)
    • Anti Magic Shell 5s (7s glyphed) absorbs 75% of the incoming spelldamage (up to 50% of your hitpoints) every 45s
    • Icebound Fortitude 12s -50% damage every 180s
    • Death Pact 25% instant heal every at least 120s (your ghul has to be alive and raise undead is on 180s cd)
    • Army of the Dead "While channelling Army of the Dead, the Death Knight takes less damage equal to his Dodge plus Parry chance." every 600s for one rune of each type
    • Will of the Necropolis 8s -25% dmg while hits take you below 30% of your hitpoints every 45s (passive!) + free Blood Rune + Rune Tap CD reset
    • Dancing Rune Weapon 12s +20% parry every 90s (cost: 60 rp)
    • Vampiric Blood 10s +15% Hp, +25% healing received every 60s or +40% healing received every 60s (glyphed)
    Paladin (-10% damage taken)
    • Guardian of the Ancient Kings 12s -50% damage every 180s
    • Ardent Defender 10s -20% damage and you will survive one lethal attack every 180s
    • Divine Protection 10s -20% damage every 60s or 10s -40% magical damage every 60s (glyphed)
    • Lay on Hands instant heal to 100% every 560s ("If used on self, the Paladin cannot be targeted by Divine Protection or self-targeted Lay on Hands again for 2 min.")
    Druid (-12% damage taken & -18% spelldamage taken)
    • Survival Instincts 12s -50% dmg every 180s
    • Barskin 12s -20% dmg every 60s
    • Frenzied Regeneration 20s +30% maximum hitpoints, heals you instantly to 30% hitpoints (if below) and converts up to 10 rage/s into addional healing (up to 3%/s) every 180s or 20s +30% maximum hitpoints, heals you instantly to 30% hitpoints (if below) and healing received is increased by 30%
    Warrior (-10% damage taken)
    • Shield Wall 12s -40% damage every 120s or 12s -60% Dmg every 240s (glyphed)
    • Last Stand 20s +30% maximum hitpoints every 180s
    • Enraged Regeneration 10s heals 30% of your hitpoints every 180s (requires beeing enraged)
    Interesting blues of the last time:
    Dragons damage / Magic Tanking
    If Deathwing is anything like our current dragons, he'll do 60% physical damage and 40% magical damage. Dragon breaths never take you down to 100% of your health, so if the tank dies during them, it's probably because she wasn't topped off before hand (from all the physical damage before hand).

    We got rid of the magical tank niche early in LK development because it wasn't a strong enough niche and it wasn't fun for groups to have to swap MTs. All four tanks are tanking Lich King and all four tanks will be tanking Deathwing. (Source)
    Warrior - Shield Block
    When those scary moments come, you use Shield Wall. Or Last Stand. Or both. They are often telegraphed far in advance, so you can also get Guardian Spirit and all the other healer cooldowns lined up as well. You don't need Shield Block to withstand those big magical hits, in the same way you didn't need it to survive Fusion Punch. That's not what it's for. It is for reducing damage taken over time so that healers expend less mana over the course of the fight and don't run out. Very few bosses hit for only magical damage, so in that sense Shield Block and block and armor for that matter are what allow your healers to make it through an encounter.

    We could consider adding a Shield Block glyph in the future that removes the block but adds magic damage reduction instead, but overall I think you guys are way over-freaking out about this. (Source)

    Shield Block is not intended to be a magic damage cooldown (neither is Blood Shield, which also is physical damage only). We don’t want to duplicate the exact same ability on every tank when we can avoid it. Bosses generally don’t spam out a lot of magic damage on short cooldowns. On the other hand, Shield Block has a much higher up-time than Barkskin. We still believe the Cataclysm raiding environment is going to be a lot less centered around tanks dying to spike damage than players currently experience at level 80. Mitigating a lot of damage to save healer mana can be very valuable in Cataclysm.
    Last edited by klausi; 11-04-2010 at 04:42 PM.

  2. #2
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    Last I checked there are some holes in your facts/completeness. I may have missed something in the last build of the beta, but...

    For DKs:
    Base damage reduction is 8% from stance, Blade Barrier stacks ~multiplicatively, so it is a total of 13.52% reduction when it is up
    IBF has a 2 min CD (120 sec)
    Death Pact has a 2 min CD but Raise Dead has a 3 min CD, so a tank cannot use it more than once every 3 min
    Army of the Dead's channel (duration of the damage reduction) lasts 6 sec
    Glyphed Rune Tap only heals your party, to be clear, not an entire raid
    Vamp Blood lasts 10 sec
    Dark Simulacrum does not negate the cast, it only duplicates the spell for the DK

    Paladins:
    Guardian of Ancient Kings (will) has a 2 min CD (120 sec)
    Divine Protection is a 20% magic dmg reduction when glyphed
    Lay on Hands is a 10 min base (600 sec) and can be glyphed down to a 7 min CD

    Druids:
    Survival Instincts (will) has a 2 min CD (120 sec)
    Barkskin is 12 sec duration
    Frenzied Regen heals up to 3% health per second, but consumes Rage to do it (0.3% health per point of rage consumed)

    Warriors:
    Shield Wall (will be) 50% reduction every 2 min (w/ talents) -or- 60% reduction every 3 min with the glyph
    Enraged Regen heals you for 30% of your max health over 10 sec (wording above is unclear, it does not increase your max health)

    You include some passive abilities like WotN, but exclude others like Holy Shield. You include some self heals like Rune Tap and Word of Glory but exclude others like Death Strike which will be a big effect and interacts heavily with DK mastery.

    You've omitted a lot of resource costs. DRW for DKs is rather expensive (60 RP), as is Bone Shield (1 Unholy rune) and Army of the Dead (1 of each rune). Spell Reflect has a rage cost (15 rage) but can give you back 4 times that if it is glyphed and succeeds.
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  3. #3
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    I'm not sure I agree with the list either.
    If Leader of the Pack is a cooldown, then so is Blood Craze. I personally don't consider either of them a "cooldown".
    Spell Reflect and Dark Simulacrum probably shouldn't be up there (debatable), as neither work on boss spells.

    As Satorri said, some of the costs are not listed, or inaccurate.
    E.G. A Deathknight's Death Pact is on a 2 min CD, but they need to have a pet alive. Raise Dead is on a 3 min CD. Likely that Death pact will not be available every 2 mins, closer to 2:45 or 3 mins.
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    And there is victory rush as well which is not listed.
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    I would also hesitate to call Victory Rush a cooldown.
    It should not be on the list.
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    @Satorri: I believe he is comparing the beta changed cooldowns... all the big shieldwall esq cooldowns are 3 minutes now except for warrior. Warrior is 40% 2 min, all others are 50% 3 min

    Divine protection reduces all damage by 20%, glyphed it reduces only magic damage but does 40% reduction.


    That list does make me sad to be a warrior though =(

    Quote Originally Posted by klausi View Post
    Death Knight (-14% damage taken until you can't spend your Blood Runes for 10s+ => -8%)
    Paladin (-10% damage taken)
    Druid (-12% damage taken & -18% spelldamage taken)
    Warrior (-10% damage taken)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Takethecake View Post
    @Satorri: I believe he is comparing the beta changed cooldowns... all the big shieldwall esq cooldowns are 3 minutes now except for warrior. Warrior is 40% 2 min, all others are 50% 3 min

    Divine protection reduces all damage by 20%, glyphed it reduces only magic damage but does 40% reduction.


    That list does make me sad to be a warrior though =(
    Apples != Oranges. Warriors and Paladins have Block, among other things.
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    @Satorri
    After a lot of announcements they just changed all "huge" cooldowns from one day (10/28) to another (10/29) from two to three minutes, except warrior's shieldwall. Source

    Dark Simulacrum's description says: "[...] Against nonplayers, only absorbs some harmful spells."

    Regarding Paladin's Divine Protection: it reduces all damage by 20% and the glyph says: "Removes the physical damage reduction of your Divine Protection, but increases the magical damage reduction by 20%." If i'm not mistaken here that's 20/20% to 0/40%.

    I reworded and fixed those mistakes, thanks for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    You include some passive abilities like WotN, but exclude others like Holy Shield. You include some self heals like Rune Tap and Word of Glory but exclude others like Death Strike which will be a big effect and interacts heavily with DK mastery.
    That's a valid point, at first i included almost every spell (including Blood Parasite ) that might help you in one way or another while raiding but Death Strike/Bone Shield and Savage Defense or Holy Shield all only contribute to their more or less unique ways to migitate/avoid/absorb/heal some damage taken so i skipped them entirely (except LotP, i obviously forgot about that). Is this a mistike in your eyes? Shall we include all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    You've omitted a lot of resource costs. DRW for DKs is rather expensive (60 RP), as is Bone Shield (1 Unholy rune) and Army of the Dead (1 of each rune). Spell Reflect has a rage cost (15 rage) but can give you back 4 times that if it is glyphed and succeeds.
    That's another valid point, should costs better generally be listed to reflect the tps decrease for using it?

  9. #9
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    I would also hesitate to call Victory Rush a cooldown.
    It should not be on the list.
    Heals at least as much as a health pot. Every little bit counts at the line... so it is a cooldown. Restrictions are placed on the others in the list, this restriction is a enemy health percentage. (ie. if you don't have any runes as a DK, you are SOL for your cooldowns...)

    I fail to see the logic in not counting it.
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    spell reflect is kind of a bullshit cooldown too, because any spell that actually matters, can't be reflected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    Heals at least as much as a health pot. Every little bit counts at the line... so it is a cooldown. Restrictions are placed on the others in the list, this restriction is a enemy health percentage. (ie. if you don't have any runes as a DK, you are SOL for your cooldowns...)

    I fail to see the logic in not counting it.
    It's less to do with what it actaully does, and more to do with how it does what it does.
    2 reasons that I do not consider Victory Rush a "cooldown".

    1) It has no "cooldown". You could (with only a small amount of luck) pop 3 VRs within 6 GCDs. IMO - that's less like a cooldown, and more like a regular ability you use in your rotation. (It has a higher chance to proc than Sword and Board does - would we call Shield Slam an offensive cooldown?)

    2) The uncontrollable aspect of it. As above, you could get very lucky and have a quick succession of VRs proc for you, or you could be very unlucky and get very few procs. I can "pop" Shield Wall - it's there when I need it (cooldown permitting), same with LS+Enraged Regen, Shield Block, etc. I can't "pop" Victory Rush. I have to hope it procs and then use it accordingly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andenthal View Post
    1) It has no "cooldown". You could (with only a small amount of luck) pop 3 VRs within 6 GCDs. IMO - that's less like a cooldown, and more like a regular ability you use in your rotation. (It has a higher chance to proc than Sword and Board does - would we call Shield Slam an offensive cooldown?)
    Fun Fact, when you wipe on Professor in ICC due to the offtank dying and the raid taking to much damage from your stacks, Victory Rush will proc every time your aura kills a raid member. This on one bad attempt allowed me to survive nearly 20 seconds after the last healer died due to my hitting it every time someone in the raid died, for 20k healing each time.

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    Arguably then Rune tap is not a cooldown either by that logic.

    Death pact wouldn't be either as you would first have to summon the ghoul, then consume him.
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    I would argue that Rune tap can be used whenever (there are no outside factors limiting Blood Rune availability). It sucks that a DK might have to hold off on other abilities to "save" the Rune for Rune tap - but it doesn't change that the ability being available or not is completely controllable by the DK him/herself.

    Death Pact I agree should probably not be considered a CD. IMO it requires too much prep to be useful.
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    You have your timers for when a breath is coming or boss goes into frenzy for some seconds - that's when you pop your cooldown to prevent some damage or retroactively keep you alive. I removed both spell reflecting abilites from the list, but having one/some of the listed spells avaible can prevent a wipe every time. Other abilities and spells like blood craze or leader of the pack might procc in time or won't procc at all during the intense moments - you can't rely on them, same for VR-proccs.

    For now, I'll remove blood tap, word of glory and shield block from the list as well. From what i've seen on beta raiding videos they are used quite often to smooth out incoming damage and their cooldowns are rather short. So we could say, it's part of their regular damage reduction arsenal. But isn't that true for those <120s cd spells as well (barskin, divine protection, ams, drw, vampiric blood)? You will pop them rather often to smooth out incoming damage and won't delay them for too long if there are no spikes to watch out.
    Last edited by klausi; 11-03-2010 at 05:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenier View Post
    Fun Fact, when you wipe on Professor in ICC due to the offtank dying and the raid taking to much damage from your stacks, Victory Rush will proc every time your aura kills a raid member. This on one bad attempt allowed me to survive nearly 20 seconds after the last healer died due to my hitting it every time someone in the raid died, for 20k healing each time.
    How did you get over 300k HP in ICC?
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  17. #17
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    Either 100k with last stand or 67k with Glyph of Victory Rush

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    I had forgot about the Glyph.
    You'd still need about 225k HP to get a 20k heal from VR with the glyph though.

    Unless I'm doing my math horribly wrong

    Edit: slight math error (wrong modifier, was off by 5k HP) - otherwise I'm pretty sure my mathz is rite
    Last edited by Andenthal; 11-03-2010 at 05:27 PM.
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  19. #19
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    VR heals you for 20% (30% glyphed) of your total hitpoints, so it's

    hitpoints x 0.2 = amount healed

    and x 0.3 with glyph

  20. #20
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    I was under Last Stand, so around 90k HP.

    I have Field Dressing, and ICC Zone buff increased the heal by an additional 30% (double dips, 30% more hp, 30% more healing). Heal resulted in being just under 20k.

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