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Thread: World of Warcraft: At Wit's End

  1. #1
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    World of Warcraft: At Wit's End

    Hey gang. Let me start off by saying that I've been a big fan of this site for some time now. Your videos, advice, and walkthroughs have been instrumental in helping me to get the basic idea for a lot of raid encounters since Wrath of the Lich King came out. I want to give Ciderhelm and all the rest of you major props for the fabulous work you guys have done.

    On to my issues. I'm at my wit's end with Warrior tanking post-4.0.1. Initial aggro on AoE encounters in heroics (of which, there are multitudes) have driven me to no ends of frustration and almost caused me to respec.

    My usual rotation on AoE pulls mainly consist of: Battle Shout (if up), Zerk Rage, Charge, Shockwave, Cleave, Rend, Thunderclap, Revenge (usually proc'd by this time), Cleave, *priority hits*

    Also, gearing has been a major P.I.T.A. Everyone is saying to gem for Stam except the one slot you need for your meta. Alright, fine. Done that. Then I look at the rest of my stats and see that I'm really shafted for Expertise. I've been parried (and parry-gibbed) and dodged a ton which doesn't help with holding threat. So I decided to reforge some of my gear until at least my level 82 dodge/parry chance was 0%. Done. Then I look at my avoidance and my dodge/parry chances took a major dive when I reforged (since I have no other stats to draw from). So now I'm taking more spike damage. I'm really in need of advice here because I've pretty much drawn from what's left of my reserves. I switched to a slow one-hander (Nighttime is the only one I have since I can't afford the PvP sword), but that only served to make things worse. So I switched back to my tanking sword.

    Any advice will be much appreciated.

    [rant]
    On a side note, I'm rather tired of the way DPS is handling things anymore. You tell them to give you a second or two to get initial threat, they don't listen, they pull aggro, they die, they blame you, and you get kicked. Someone tell me where all the smart DPS are because they sure don't play this game anymore. Spoiled...
    [/rant]

    Edit: Armory is having issues loading for me right now. Here's the link: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...h&cn=Kneecapya
    Last edited by Kneecapya; 11-03-2010 at 12:54 AM.

  2. #2
    AoE tanking is hard again. In Vanilla a warrior tank that could hold 4 mobs where God. When I did Shattered Halls with no CC in TBC, I felt I was on top of the world. The tricks we used back then are still valid.

    What I miss from your "rotation" is tabbing and using single target attacks. Shield Slam hits like a nuclear missile and Devastate applies Sunder Armor (Glyphed on an extra mob too). My take would be something like
    Get Rage: Battle Shout, Zerk Rage, Charge
    Lay down the Hurt: Shockwave, [Tab] + Shield Block + Shield Slam, [Tab] + Thunder Clap, [Tab] + Cleave, [Tab] + Devastate, [Tab] + Revenge, [Tab] + Cleave, [Tab] + Shield Block (SnB proc), etc.

    Basically it is a Priority Table with Cleave, Rev, SS, Rev, TC, except for the initial secuence where I want to use the extra threat from SB+SS. I don't use B&T, but if I did I would apply it immediately before my second TC.

    The really important thing is to [Tab] between each attack regardless of if it is instant or on GCD.
    Emeritus of Sylvanas EU - A three day a week hard core guild

  3. #3
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    ...also using SW to slow down mobs on their way to overnuking DPS is a good tool.

    You don't need to keep aggro on trash. If they die in the stun it amounts to the same thing. Tabbing and Slamming is important, yes. But you also need a priority list for targets.

    Let's take the gauntlet at the end of HoR for simplicities sake.
    You don't need to tank the caster types since they don't hav a single target attack but rather some sort of multi target shadow bolt. You could tank them but it wouldn't change a drun thing. You could tank those jumping annoying things but frankly, if you briefly stun or tclap them them that's enough time for DPS to kill them. But if you leave one Abom on the loose, tank it facing towards the group, if you screw this one up you'll have a wipe on your hands.

    This and the melee creeps in the waves in the sword room are about only mobs in somewhat big groups that truly insta gib an DPS. Otherwise, don't sweat the small stuff. If you truly want to hold aggro on everything you'll have to start marking focus targets. Good luck teaching this to your groups.

    May I ask if you actually lose players to trash if the players themselves aren't trash?

    And the PvP weapons are actually worth it. A weekend in lovely Alterac(it's a bit like Aspen but less trolls) nets you whatever slow onehander you want. I went for the claw since claws are cool. Reforged +AP to something dodgy, gemmed for stam and I'm quite happy with the result. The Arena Rating restrictions on the ilvl264 weapons are quite wrong. They are unrestricted. It works wonders for the likes of Cleave and Devastate.

    Don't lose any sleep over expertise. The new cap is 23(for lvl 83 bosses in raids). Only a few bosses really parry haste(I can currently only recall Sindragosa and even that was disputed). I ran ICC25 as MT with a wopping expertise of 7 and had not trouble with either threat or parry haste.

    From what you wrote it's quite possible that your DPS are better geared than you. Well, in that case, sucks to be them, doesn't it? this just increases their repair bills in case of overnuking. In many ways a big part of tanking is propably arrogance. You need to grow a very thick skin.

    Here's what can help you:
    Install Tidy Plates with Threat Plates. It color codes whatever target you are losing threat on. That's where you'll have to land your next SS.
    Install something that helps you mark targets. Like Mark Helper. It's basically just a bar with symbols. Click it and your target is marked for death.
    Another thing that works for me but takes a bit of effort is the following. Have you noticed the new effect around your character whenever Sword and Bord is up? It's the epitome of useless. You can do better. Grab Power Auras and configure it to show you:
    a)you can use SS
    b)you can use revenge
    c)you can use Shockwave
    d)you can use TClap
    e)you can use Cleave/Heroic Strike
    f)you are below a certain threshold of rage(sub 25 in my config)
    g)you are above a certain threshold of rage(above 60 in my config)

    If you feel like it you can include something for Shield Block, Reflect, Shield Bash and other skills but I found that only clutters my screen.
    If you set up your UI like that and train yourself to use it you can see at a glance which mobs you are losing and what tools are at your disposal.

    I think that's about all the advice I can give to you.

    Edit:
    Just took a look at your armory. Looks hunky dory to me. But you might want to reconsider your gemming choice for the helmet. The bonus is +12 stam so using a hybrid gem would only cost you 3 stam. The PvP shoulder enchant is also viable. But really, there are no glaring errors.
    If you have the dough you might find nice ICC25 upgrades for your gun slot and a very nice ring. Also the crafted boots should be quite affordable by now. And there are nice ilvl245 crafted bracers. All that you can live without. But still, they are nice upgrades. Your equipment should see you halfway through ICC10. Don't sweat the small stuff.

    And your Gnome has a serious problem. Not an engineer. How could you?
    Last edited by Mačl; 11-03-2010 at 05:01 AM.

    SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
    pioneer of representative government who was
    killed in the Battle of Evesham on 4 August 1265.


  4. #4
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    You might have a problem with very high end dps no matter what you do until you have equal high end gear. You might want to try a different spec that focuses on doing damage versus survival. Try 3/2/31. Put 3 points in war acad, 2 points in cruelty. Take these points from safegaurd and impending victory. By doing more damage you create more threat. I agree with the above poster as well, shield slam is #1 in threat production, so hit your main target with it often. One more thing I noticed is that your hit is 100. You will miss taunts unless you can reforge your hit to 264.

  5. #5
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    I am sort of with the rest here you can respec and do rework on gear all you like be aware NO TANK OF ANY CLASS finds heroics contollable to any easy degree with particular reasonably geared class/specs in them.

    Those classes fury warrior, frost DK's, shadow priests and fire mages have enormous splash damage.

    If a tank says they don't have issues they are either very very good and geared or lying.

    In my dps adventure on my dk as frost dps in the forum http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...ight=frost+dps I have now logged 96 heroic runs and of that only 2 tanks ever really had control and those were both geared in almost full ICC heroic gear.

    Those classs/specs have extreme splash damage and make it tough for the tank. They could avoid using splash damage but it takes down there dps so heavily they simply won't.

    My advice is recognize the classes that will cause problem and be prepared. If you have a warrior or DK give them vigilance if they get agro you at least get vengance and taunt is auto refreshed.

    Withhold your shockwave till you lose agro. A well timed stun is control and face it with the dps pouring in on a target it will be dead before the stun breaks.

    Spec and gear configuration is not as important as being comfortable in your knowledge you can control the situation. The melee dps the danger to them is immediate the mob is in close proximity the range you have a little time to react and charge/intercept.

    The biggest thing to realize is the DPS is pushing the bounds like my runs I know I am (god knows I have upset enough tanks) but I have no complaints if I die to agro it's my fault. Sometimes the DPS may leave it's not your fault we as DPS can behave and will have to in cata it just isn't as much fun :-)

    If your losing agro to silly low DPS then obviously look at the issue but if a DPS is holding 6K+ for an entire run then you are going to struggle. That will mean they are usually doing 6-8K single target and will peak at times at 9-12K and can get there in a few seconds that will push any tank.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  6. #6
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    Thanks guys. I'm looking over the stuff right now. I know I forgot to mention Shield Block/Slam and Devastate. Sorry about that. I was half asleep when I made my original post. I do have a question though. I've decided to drop Glyph of Shield Wall for Glyph of Sunder Armor to give me another option for multi-target threat. Is this a fair swap? Would Glyph of Cleaving be better?

  7. #7
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    I think the biggest help in 4.0.1 AoE tanking is for the dps to assist off the tank and DPS his main focus. That way the tank's off-targets only have to be held against healer aggro, which is incredibly simple.

    There's a lot of ways DPS can assist off tanks, but the easiest way I've found is this:

    Tab to a mob. Press "F". This targets a tank (we're going to assume dps aren't pulling stuff off tanks willy-nilly already). Press "F" again. The tank's target is now targeted. When the mob is dead, wash, rinse and repeat. (Tab-f-f, tab-f-f, ad nauseum)

    That way, the tank only really has to worry about threat on whatever he has targeted. The above method is especially good when you get unexpected adds. I started doing this on my DPS after 4.0 and I don't pull off the tank.

    Edit: if the tank unexpectedly had to switch targets, then my threat starts to climb and I get an aggro warning. I just hit "f" twice again and get the tank's new target. Easy-peasy.

  8. #8
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    Bind target markers to some keys (I use F1-F8), and mark up targets before heading in. Concentrate the majority of your damage/threat on the main target, while using AoE tools like TC/SW/Cleave. If the dps pulls one of the targets off you that isn't the primary dps target, it's their own damn fault. If they want to bitch you out, bitch at them back that they aren't following the kill order. It's something the DPS is going to have to learn to do for Cata anyway. If they die, they pay the repairs. If they kick you, who cares? You were doing the right thing, and you have a 3 second queue.

    Also, I wouldn't save SW for runners, as one of the posters above suggested. It's better to just learn to tank properly than to control runners with a Shockwave.
    Kathy, I said, "I'm lost" though I knew she was sleeping
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  9. #9
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    Also, for all tanks, the time has come again to start marking targets, skull, X.... I notice more tanks tabbing through to get a few swings in but this is tough on the DPS who are trying to single target using assist.

  10. #10
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    In my opinion simply tabbing through mobs of 5 is just a small step up from sticking to one target and hoping for the best. You need to monitor your threat levels on each and every one and once you reach dangerously low levels of threat on one you have to hit that one. Hard.

    The problem is, the default UI does a shoddy job giving you that information. You do need Threat Plates for that.
    But that level of control requires your DPS to hold back for 2 GCDs. You have no chance otherwise. In scripted encounters like the dragonkin in ToC4 you might as well throw in the towel and taunt as much as possible if your DPS are high on damage and low on brains.

    What I described is something that requires healer levels of OCD and isn't required of you anymore. Every DPS nowadays has means to escape certain death or can survive at lest 3 hits from trash on their own. No worries, mate.

    In cases olike the very first mobs in ICC you can only tab through and hope your other tank gets those that slip you by. That has to be the shoddiest encounter in all of WotLK.

    Let's face it, warrior tanks are in better shape than we ever were in this expansion. Plenty of rage as OT, shorter CD on heroic throw, the second tier of glyphs gives us nice toys we had to choose from before(glyph of cleave/SW and you don't have to skip anything important), I have to say, our toolkit is better than it was before. AoE threat has gone down the drain but we are less affected than others. We had to work for it before so no big deal.

    Also this late in the expansion any well geared DPS can sustain some hits. Healers aren't as squishy as they were 2 years ago. We can afford being a bit sloppy in 5mans.
    Last edited by Mačl; 11-03-2010 at 12:42 PM.

    SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
    pioneer of representative government who was
    killed in the Battle of Evesham on 4 August 1265.


  11. #11
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    Re: World of Warcraft: At Wit's End

    I wouldn't worry about it too much, increase your hit to the cap or just below and you'll probably get 22-23 expertise from JP gear and the 245 crafted bracers / 264 crafted feet. I found that put my threat though the roof, also I heard taunts don't miss anymore

    Sent from my T-Mobile G1 using Tapatalk

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kneecapya View Post
    Also, gearing has been a major P.I.T.A. Everyone is saying to gem for Stam except the one slot you need for your meta. Alright, fine. Done that. Then I look at the rest of my stats and see that I'm really shafted for Expertise. I've been parried (and parry-gibbed) and dodged a ton which doesn't help with holding threat. So I decided to reforge some of my gear until at least my level 82 dodge/parry chance was 0%. Done. Then I look at my avoidance and my dodge/parry chances took a major dive when I reforged (since I have no other stats to draw from). So now I'm taking more spike damage.
    When it comes to raids only Sindragosa and Deathwhisper parry haste. So that's a non issue. Keep your gems the correct way and reforge some parry for hit cap and 23 expertise.

    In heroics i run in full DPS gear, for mad threat gen and haste for rage gen. Helps DPS the mobs for a faster run and keeps those DPS at bay most of the time. If you got someone pulling stuff of you let them tank it or die. If you are using your abilities properly there is nothing more you can do. DPS simply need to re-learn how to play. Wrath babies will have the hardest time adjusting. Anyone who played in Vanilla or BC will remember how it was and get back in line.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  13. #13
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    I know it hasn't got the love it deserves on these boards, but Blood and Thunder turns out to be a really decent AOE tool when used properly. Since it is applying a DOT you really need to get it up before your first Thunderclap, which means in the opening moments of the pull. So depending on where your DPS and healer are, you want to try and get a GCD or so where it's just you. Charge does this very well if you don't get too far ahead of your healer (or if you are geared to be able to take some hits for a bit).

    I've found that I can frequently charge -> Rend -> TC -> Shockwave with no problem, which will help a lot as you then Cleave/Revenge?tab select SS/Devastate inbetween TC/SW cooldowns. If you have problems losing mobs early (e.g. if you have a healer with HOTs stacked on you, or the DPS are getting too close too soon) toss up the Shockwave first, then Rend and TC the group before settling in to the tab-selecting rotation.

    It's completely possible to hold AOE threat against DPS unless they totally outgear you, but it's certainly more work now. Just like before making sure the pull goes well is usually the make or break point for determining whether it will be organized chaos, or "frantically taunt errant mobs" chaotic, so make sure you are identifying melee and casters, make sure you are pulling in a way that will let you group them up, etc. And don't be afraid to mark a skull and even and X if you still find yourself having trouble.

  14. #14
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    I saw no mention of the reworked Vigilance anywhere.
    Yes it doesn't transfer threat anymore, but what it does is give 3% damage reduction to the target and anytime that target gets hit, it refreshes your taunt.
    Not sure of how much use it is in Heroics, but I know my Co-Tank in ICC loved it, he never had to worry about not having taunt available.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selene View Post
    Yes it doesn't transfer threat anymore, but what it does is give 3% damage reduction to the target and anytime that target gets hit, it refreshes your taunt.
    Just wanted to note that the 3% damage reduction appears to be gone in the latest Beta patch:

    Quote Originally Posted by Blizzard
    Vigilance no longer reduces damage taken by the target by 3%.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by vorbis View Post
    Just wanted to note that the 3% damage reduction appears to be gone in the latest Beta patch:
    LOL, then what exactly does it do? Only a free taunt fresh?
    "What we need is a special blend of Psychology and extreme violence"

  17. #17
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    Vigilance: Focus your protective gaze on a group or raid target. Each time they are hit by an attack your Taunt cooldown is refreshed and you gain Vengeance as if 20% of the damage was done to you.
    So yes, free taunt refresh, along with the Vengeance stacking. It is pretty much exclusively a tanking utility tool now.

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