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Thread: Slow weapons are it, but do we want Agility or Strength?

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    Slow weapons are it, but do we want Agility or Strength?

    All things being equal, would we rather have Strength than Agility or will we be toting one of each for different uses?

    I don't have the numbers for how much AP/Parry Strength gives vs the Crit/Dodge from Agility for Protection Warriors
    Last edited by Orlanth; 11-01-2010 at 06:00 PM. Reason: fix'd
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    http://cata.wowhead.com/item=68161 <-- This looks like a bad tank weapon to me. Generous quantities of Agi, Hit and Haste is generally the sign of a weapon best left to leather/mail DPS, in my mind. I would feel more confident with a str/dodge or str/parry weapon than I would an agi/haste weapon.

    That said, If the haste got changed to mastery in an update that hasn't hit wowhead yet, probably would do fine in lieu of a raid drop intended for the role.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Alent View Post
    That said, If the haste got changed to mastery in an update that hasn't hit wowhead yet, probably would do fine in lieu of a raid drop intended for the role.
    The Mastery was a brain fart by me.
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    Agi giving 2AP, Crit and Dodge. and agi no longer gives armour.
    Str gives 2AP, Crit Dmg and Parry.

    At 80 in good gear most of us have excess dodge from our gear taking us into the heavy curve scaling for dodge but not sure this will be so in cata gear.

    And for that reason an 80 ATM agility is of limited value to an 80 and I would choose strength over agi if they were the same quantities. Without seeing what our base stats are going to be as an 85 really can't make comment on which will be desirable till we get there unless a beta tester has some feedback.
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    Agility doesn't provide any attackpower to the plate wearing tanking classes, so it's only crit (~ 62 for 1% at clvl 80) and dodge (~75 for 1% at clvl 80).

    There are two slow and interesting tanking options, both with mastery - Mace of Acrid Death & Soul Blade. Looks like finally our prayers got heard

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orlanth View Post
    I don't have the numbers for how much AP/Parry Strength gives vs the Crit/Dodge from Agility for Protection Warriors
    The STR to Parry conversion is 25% of STR to Parry (rating) - just as Death Knights have had for a long while now.

    IIRC - Strength is slightly better than Agility or Crit point-for-point. It's probably not enough of a difference to use a lower item level STR weapon over a higher item level Agility weapon though, as weapon damage is a huge factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orlanth View Post
    All things being equal, would we rather have Strength than Agility or will we be toting one of each for different uses?
    All other things being equal, there's no reason to carry an Agility weapon if you have a STR one all ready. Of course if you have bad luck with drops don't hesitate to pick up an Agility weapon if the other stats look good (speed namely).

    The 2 weapons that klausi linked make me happy in my pants though - especially the mace.
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    Quote Originally Posted by klausi View Post
    There are two slow and interesting tanking options, both with mastery - Mace of Acrid Death ...
    Ok, I might play my paladin again for that. wow.

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    And the first screenshots have been shown recently:
    Mace of Acrid Death => picture
    Soul Blade => picture

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    Are those end boss 5man heroic weps ?
    Marking targets, coordinating CC, and *most importantly*, pulling responsibly so that 9 elites didn't rush us and wipe the party, this Is something I have missed since nov 08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bowen View Post
    Are those end boss 5man heroic weps ?
    no their raid weapons.

    no welfare 5man epics on cata launch, jsut blues in dungeons.
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    There are six ilvl 346 tanking blues with ~410 dps, obtainable via heroic dungeons or from blacksmithing. And way more (17 total per faction), if you are willing to go with crit/haste/agility instead of better suiting tank stats.

    Outstanding: Cookie's Tenderizer thanks to 2.8 weapon speed.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by klausi View Post
    Outstanding: Cookie's Tenderizer thanks to 2.8 weapon speed.
    Awesome! I lost mine in Scarlet Monastery I think. Will be nice to get it back now
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    Not to steal this thread away, but I was looking over my tooltips in my character stats last night and noticed that agi no longer gives (or says that it gives) dodge and armor. It's just crit. That's for my warrior and my dk, I have not looked into my pally tank or druid tank. Did they change this with the patch and I was just overlooking it because I was focusing more on the new playstyle?

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    Agi still gives a minimal amount of dodge. the armor is definitely gone tho'

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    http://cata.wowhead.com/item=51521
    How good is this weapon for a tank that can't/doesn't raid heroics etc etc
    Last edited by Chukklez; 11-11-2010 at 02:10 AM.

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    It's pretty good, even if you CAN do raids!
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Chukklez View Post
    http://cata.wowhead.com/item=51521
    How good is this weapon for a tank that can't/doesn't raid heroics etc etc
    Yeah, my warrior has a 251 tanking weapon but I banked it for that sword. Cleave is so much more wonderful.
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    I like Wrathful Gladiator's Slicer over any of the ilvl 232 tanking weapons from heroics, owing largely to the socket and stamina increase. Using it over any ilvl 251 / 264 tanking weapons is a little iffier, since the resilience can't be reforged and is pretty well worthless in PvE. You're looking at about 40 more AP on the Slicer than an ilvl 251 tanking weapon, about 25 more AP on the Slicer than an equivalent ilvl 264 tanking item, and 38 crit rating as well. The Slicer will also have slightly more Stam. Textbook example of choosing whether you'd prefer the marginal gains in threat in Stam, or marginal gains in avoidance. The slicer is definitely a worthwhile competitor, though.

    With regards to attack speed, unless I'm missing something, Cleave and Heroic Strike damage is now completely independent of weapon attack speed. Shouldn't be seeing a large increase in Cleave damage switching from an ilvl 251 tanking weapon to a Wrathful Gladiator tanking weapon. The only ability Prot Warriors have now that cares about weapon speed is Devastate, which is, what, 15%-20% of our overall damage on any given fight?

    Back of the envelope mathing some numbers at 5,000 AP (ignoring stance modifiers, armor reduction, etc.):

    Devastate @ 5,000 AP, 226.8 DPS, 1.7 speed weapon =

    (226.8 DPS * 1.7s)*1.5 + 954 damage (3 applications of Sunder Armor) + (5000/14)*2.4 = ~2389 damage

    Devastate @ 5,000 AP, 226.8 DPS, 2.6 speed weapon =

    (226.8 DPS * 2.6s)*1.5 + 954 damage (3 applications of Sunder Armor) + (5000/14)*2.4 = ~2696 damage


    Devastate with a 2.6 speed weapon under those conditions will hit about 13% harder than a 1.7 speed weapon. Like a 2-3% overall damage increase maybe depending on how much you use Devastate?

    Devastate @ 15% of total overall damage = %Devastate usage*(%increase in Devastate damage - 1) = 0.15(1.13 - 1) = 1.95%

    Devastate @ 20% of total overall damage = %Devastate usage*(%increase in Devastate damage - 1) = 0.20(1.13 - 1) = 2.6%

    Someone feel free to check my math (please, I'm terrible at it), but the conclusion(s) I'm drawing are:

    - All stats being equal, slow weapons are (marginally) better than fast weapons for threat, but it seems to be far from a major blowout. However, if it comes down to a choice between a slow weapon that has the same stats as a fast weapon, there's no reason to not go with the slower weapon. This will likely be the true with slow tank weapons vs. fast tank weapons in Cataclysm (assuming fast tank weapons even exist still in Cata, which they likely won't). Not breaking any new ground here, really, outside of fleshing out assumptions.

    - As a Prot Warrior's AP gets higher (say, from a fat stack of Vengeance), the AP component of Devastate's damage diminishes the impact of weapon speed. Doing the above calculations with 15,000 AP means that a 2.6 speed weapon's Devastate hits about 7.5% harder than a 1.7 speed weapon's, as compared to about 13% harder at 5,000 AP. This has interesting implications now, and more interesting implications for Cataclysm when tanks start running around with 150k+ health. Will really only apply to the small subset of weapons in Cata that have a slower than average swing speed (like Heroic Cookie's Tenderizer).

    - Since there aren't any +strength 1H weapons (and very few remaining +AP 1H weapons) in WotLK, you'll almost never want to use a +Agi weapon over a +Str weapon of the same ilvl for threat now(unless the +Agi weapon has some stat like +hit / +expertise that you really, really want).

    - Assuming 25% of Str converts to parry rating and ~41% of Agi converts to dodge rating, Agi is slightly better for avoidance than Str. Neither the Agi nor Str on your weapon is going to be give you a truckload of avoidance, however. The (Heroic) Elementium Fang (as a random example) will give you 32.25 parry rating from strength = ~0.49%(?) chance to parry before DR. The (Heroic) Cruel Barb gives about 52.89 dodge rating = ~0.81%(?) chance to dodge from agility. Prot Warriors will be giving up an awful lot of threat in Cata by using an Agi weapon over a Str weapon for a 0.32% difference in avoidance due to primary stats. I assume the same general idea will be true for the other three tanking classes to varying degrees as well. Unless I'm missing something big, intentionally using an Agi weapon over a Str weapon is going to be pretty suboptimal, as several others have said. So yeah, pretty much only use an Agi weapon if the difference in weapon DPS + threat stats is sufficiently large vs. the Str weapon you're comparing it to.

    - The Wrathful Gladiator's Slicer (and indeed all the slow Wrathful 1H weapons - bonus points if you can use one that gives you a racial expertise bonus) are nice right now in spite of their resilience because they offer as high (or higher) stam than most of their competitors of equal ilvl, while still giving +AP for threat. They're still lacking in avoidance, though, and only give a slight edge in terms of threat over ICC tanking weapons, so I'm not sure I'd recommend using them unless you're still rocking an ilvl 232 tanking weapon. This is not a clear cut issue, however.

    - Rend will likely make slow weapons the way to go for AoE tanking trash or bosses with adds, but I don't have any data at the ready which shows what % of our overall AoE damage is from Rend.
    Last edited by Wyuli; 11-15-2010 at 05:36 AM. Reason: (Attempted) clarification, updates. Thanks guys!

  19. #19
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    * Agility is worth ~41% Dodge Rating. For damage reduction Agility wins over Strength.
    * Strength does win on threat over Agility
    * Stamina at max Vengeance gives 95% of the AP Strength does.
    * Rend (most notably through Blood & Thunder) scales with whit swing damage (weapon + AP)
    * Heroic Strike & Cleave still scale with base weapon damage, which is an additional 100 damage or so per hit (200-250 in cata).
    * The best part about the Wrathfuls is that you can go for a weapon for which you have racial expertise. It's not just the slicer, you can also get the Axe, like I did on my Warrior. 3 free expertise beats BQS (even though it doesn't look as awesome )
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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