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Thread: Prot Warrior - is mastery worth reforging?

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muffin Man View Post
    I haven't started raiding yet, but the mouth of blues said this is take-2 for keeping avoidance levels down across the board; so who knows how gearing will end up.
    It's the same +13 ilvl as before in WotLK.

    ilvl 346 Heroic
    ilvl 359 T11
    ilvl 372 T11.5

    Eg it looks like every new tier adds roughly ~ 60 rating, 40 strength and 60 stamina for a chest slot.

  2. #102
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    avoidance could be kept down on gear but with a heavy emphasis on getting a lot of mastery to smooth out and reduce incoming damage.

    as long as there are no fights like heroic anub'arak where you have to have a special avoidance/block set to get through it i'm fine with less avoidance on gear this xpac....
    -Jimmy

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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakkura View Post
    You must be confusing parry and dodge. You want to be reforging a lot of parry into either dodge or mastery, because DR is a pretty serious penalty even in pre-heroics gear. Like, if you have 10% pre-DR parry it turns into 9% post-DR parry, but if you have 12% pre-DR parry it only converts to 10.5% post-DR parry. Since you get parry from strength you'll almost always have much more parry than dodge before reforging, which means you can reduce your average damage taken quite a bit by reforging to dodge. Or by reforging parry to mastery instead of dodge to mastery. Dodge and parry are almost exactly equal now, only hold the line makes any difference; and you shouldn't be taking a big DR hit just to increase your hold the line uptime.
    I was under the impression that when they removed parry haste from the game they equalized the DRs on dodge and parry so dodge didn't always trump parry. It'd be kinda stupid if they didn't. I haven't been keeping up on tanking stuff very well though. I wasn't expecting to be playing a tank this time through. Silly me.

  4. #104
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    dodge and parry dr is equal now...
    -Jimmy

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  5. #105
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    Obviously reaching "unhittable" of 75% Parry-Dodge-Mastery is something that we're aiming towards however no-one has come to a conclusion on what to build first or how much of it in each area we need. We all can agree that all 3 areas are important as well as a huge health pool. Tanks are now removing expertise and Hit rating from their gear in order to create mitigation/Avoidance as threat is a non issue.

    "Hold the Line" proc's off ANY parry therefore increases mitigation. Parry would be more ideal then dodge. This does not mean get rid of all your dodge for parry but your parry rating should be higher then dodge. Mastery is pure mitigation and is needed. To reach "unhittable" you would be aiming for something along the lines of:

    Mastery = 50%
    Parry = 13%
    Dodge = 12%

    In order to keep a 75%, you can play around with your parry / dodge a little as it must equal 75%. Some players that I have seen have killed there dodge (running with 4-7%).

    Your health pool is important as well. The more health you have the better as armor will help you take a big hit plus the chance of mitigation / avoidance through dodge-parry-mastery.

    I think I have made a mistake with my character and have decked out more stamina then needed. I am currently sitting at: 142k unbuffed (w/o CS) - 45% BL, 14% Parry and 9% Dodge... with all stam gems. I am going to remove some of the stam gems in my gear and rebuild into mastery. My health may go down 2-3k, but helping the healers that keep me alive is more important rather then bragging rights on who has more health.
    Last edited by Angur; 12-21-2010 at 12:54 AM.
    If we donít make it alive, well itís a hell of a good day to die
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  6. #106
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    Why not past 75%?

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Booi View Post
    Why not past 75%?
    because shield block gives you 25%.
    If we donít make it alive, well itís a hell of a good day to die
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...hadgar&n=Angur

  8. #108
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    You can try to reach 100% (or 102.4%) without shield block for a permanent physical damage reduction of at least 30%. Leaving us with Shield Block as a +% crit block filler and aggro tool. But that won't be that interesting until we're into T12 anyway.

  9. #109
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    Now that shieldblock already gives 25% crit block at 75% unhittable and even 50% crit block at 100% unhittable it isn't bad anymore to go over 75% unhittable.

    One little trick i found out yesterday is timing the use of Impetuous Query so that you can shieldblock on the last second, gives you 6% extra crit block. The on use of the trinket gives around 5-6% parry and the higher chance on HtL works nicely with shieldblock.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petninja View Post
    I was under the impression that when they removed parry haste from the game they equalized the DRs on dodge and parry so dodge didn't always trump parry. It'd be kinda stupid if they didn't. I haven't been keeping up on tanking stuff very well though. I wasn't expecting to be playing a tank this time through. Silly me.
    Dodge and parry DRs are exactly the same now, which means that for pure avoidance maximization you'd want to have exactly equal amounts of dodge and parry. Hold the line procs from parries, so sacrificing a small amount of avoidance by having a slightly higher parry than dodge is okay, fine even, but you definitely don't want to go for 20% parry and 10% dodge.

    On top of that comes the fact that we now get a heap of parry from our strength; every 4 strength we get also gives us 1 parry rating, which means that you're getting somewhere between 500 and 1000 parry rating just from equipping strength gear. Which means that, to keep parry and dodge reasonably close together, you'll usually need to reforge a lot of parry into other stuff.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbad View Post
    Now that shieldblock already gives 25% crit block at 75% unhittable and even 50% crit block at 100% unhittable it isn't bad anymore to go over 75% unhittable.
    Not bad, no, but it's probably still better to focus on avoidance once you're at 75%. Why? Because at low gear levels, avoidance usually reduces average damage taken by more than block (or crit block) does. So adding RNG block/crit block would tend to be worse than adding RNG avoidance, as long as you can't get to the point of making it not RNG. At 75% you've made block not RNG a third of the time; to make it not RNG the rest of the time you need to get to 100%, which it seems we won't be doing until later tiers.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Booi View Post
    I'm not sure where this magical "7 to 10 hits" to kill a tank came from, but it is certainly not the reality. Magmaw is not the hardest hitting boss in these raids, and this is still normal mode damage. Things are going to get much, much, worse.

    From what I've seen in 25man, almost everything, including trash mobs, hits for at least 40-55k pre-block. Then there's some incredible magic burst too. Here's an excerpt from 10m Nefarian.

    [03:32:00.021] Quewatanka gains Image of Immortality from Quewatanka
    [03:32:01.630] Nefarian's Lightning Machine Electrocute Quewatanka 37654 (O: -1, R: 62755)
    [03:32:01.865] Nefarian Shadowflame Breath Quewatanka 18901 (O: -1, R: 14000)
    [03:32:02.427] Nefarian Shadowflame Breath Quewatanka 15751 (O: -1, R: 17500)
    [03:32:02.771] Nefarian Shadowflame Breath Quewatanka 18901 (O: -1, R: 14000)
    [03:32:10.052] Quewatanka's Image of Immortality fades

    Without the trinket CD there I would have taken about 170k magic damage in 3sec.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muffin Man View Post
    So at 75% avoidance + block, shield block turns into mini shield wall, but when you have 100% it's much closer to the real shield wall as you'd probably have numbers like 45% avoidance, 55% block (50% critical) block passively which would convert to 75% critical block.
    While it will be much nearer to a real SW the biggest difference is, that it only works on melee dmg (in front of the tank while she is able to do something). It does not work against magic. Most hard boss abilities are magic while melee is only an added constant source of dmg. To be more precise every boss who actually casts something does not do melee-dmg while doing so. So while SB will be very good, you probably cannot use it like a SW cd. Anyway, to reach passive-unhittable is extremly good for it's own since it turns a rdm mitigation into a fixed mitigation which is even worth a chunk of stamina and definitly worth some avoidance. But it will take some time until we can reach that.

    And when we reach it, I'm not sure if block will be turned into something else (again) since it may be much better than the druid and dk mastery, when it loses randomness at least partly.

  14. #114
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    If you hit passive Unhittable, your Shield Block should hit you over 100% crit block, which means that it will yet again work as a mini-SW (for avoidance-affected melee damage). This would give SB a ~43% damage reduction on a very short CD, better than anything anyone else has!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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  15. #115
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    Sure, and I appreciate it (if it will stay like this when we get it). But the catch is that it only works on melee hits. With very few exceptions the bit hits for which one uses timed CDs like SW were nearly always magic dmg where SB does not do anything. Often enough they even occure when the boss does not even hit the tank. So with passive unhittable SB is great for the melee hits around the big boss abilities but cannot help you survive the big hits for themselve. If you are low bevore the hit, you probably will die wether you use SB or not while SW or LS can prevent this.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakkura View Post
    Not bad, no, but it's probably still better to focus on avoidance once you're at 75%. Why? Because at low gear levels, avoidance usually reduces average damage taken by more than block (or crit block) does. So adding RNG block/crit block would tend to be worse than adding RNG avoidance, as long as you can't get to the point of making it not RNG. At 75% you've made block not RNG a third of the time; to make it not RNG the rest of the time you need to get to 100%, which it seems we won't be doing until later tiers.
    The chance on a string of full hits is much smaller when you are at 90% unhittable then at 75% unhittable. I'm currently at 10,3% dodge 14,5% parry and 52% block just with battleshout. Mastery food + elixer adds another 2,6% block, around 85% unhittable raidbuffed atm. I should probably make the gap between parry and dodge a little smaller but mastery is better then avoidance for me. Mastery giving around 0,88% damage reduction, dodge 0,86% damage reduction and parry 0,80% damage reduction.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katzazi View Post
    Sure, and I appreciate it (if it will stay like this when we get it). But the catch is that it only works on melee hits. With very few exceptions the bit hits for which one uses timed CDs like SW were nearly always magic dmg where SB does not do anything. Often enough they even occure when the boss does not even hit the tank. So with passive unhittable SB is great for the melee hits around the big boss abilities but cannot help you survive the big hits for themselve. If you are low bevore the hit, you probably will die wether you use SB or not while SW or LS can prevent this.
    But it can help reduce damage before & after a big hit, to ensure you are topped up before the breath (or Cleave or whatever), and that you won't die afterwards.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
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  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katzazi View Post
    While it will be much nearer to a real SW the biggest difference is, that it only works on melee dmg (in front of the tank while she is able to do something). It does not work against magic. Most hard boss abilities are magic while melee is only an added constant source of dmg. To be more precise every boss who actually casts something does not do melee-dmg while doing so. So while SB will be very good, you probably cannot use it like a SW cd.
    It'll be pretty baller for a Fetergut P3 type soft enrage mechanic.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbad View Post
    The chance on a string of full hits is much smaller when you are at 90% unhittable then at 75% unhittable. I'm currently at 10,3% dodge 14,5% parry and 52% block just with battleshout. Mastery food + elixer adds another 2,6% block, around 85% unhittable raidbuffed atm. I should probably make the gap between parry and dodge a little smaller but mastery is better then avoidance for me. Mastery giving around 0,88% damage reduction, dodge 0,86% damage reduction and parry 0,80% damage reduction.
    Yeah, but you still don't want to be relying to heavily on RNG to prevent spike death. If you can be spiked to death at 75% then the same will be the case at 99%. In fact, the former would be preferable if the gear level is the same, since that would leave room for more EH stacking (to the limited extent that is even possible with current gear... I'm looking at you, lame Cataclysm armor trinkets).

    The other side is average damage reduction, which is a different discussion entirely. In that debate, avoidance is often, even usually, going to trump block. Block just has the upside that it can turn into pseudo-EH once you get to 100% effective combined block and avoidance.

  20. #120
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    Actually ...

    99% > 75% because of the damage reduction and the severly reduced chance to get such a spike.
    And Mastery is about as valuable as avoidance (depending on your gear level), so you can easily stack it up to more and hit passive Unhittable without gimping yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
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