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Thread: Prot Warrior - is mastery worth reforging?

  1. #61
    From my personal observations based on the theory in this thread, until I start getting gibbed in the dangerous 3-4 second death scenarios of WOLK, I'm gearing for avoidance rather than EH or damage-smoothing as I believe this is the best, most healer-friendly approach to tanking. Now, if that leaves me with incoming damage numbers that classically wouldn't fit in the "gibbed tank" range, but is still enough to cause the healers to feel like they need to reach for their high-mana casts, then I can rethink the equation. So far, for every percentage or two of avoidance that I've added since hitting 85, I see the healers end boss fights (not raid bosses, granted) with bigger and bigger blue bars, as well as a few comments that indicate they were at ease healing me.

  2. #62
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    I'm not sure where this magical "7 to 10 hits" to kill a tank came from, but it is certainly not the reality. Magmaw is not the hardest hitting boss in these raids, and this is still normal mode damage. Things are going to get much, much, worse.



    For any serious progression tank, avoidance is not the answer. People are advocating complete reforging of mastery into dodge and parry until you hit this required 2000 of each rating. The mitigation benefit is in a fraction of a percent at a cost of smoothing incoming damage, and drastically increasing the chance to take two unmitigated hits in a row...

    It requires more mana to heal a tank who takes less damage, that is the reality. Un-hittablity, Warriors are the new Paladins.

  3. #63
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    Would you advocate mitigation for raids and avoidance for dungeons?

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by gigglepants View Post
    Would you advocate mitigation for raids and avoidance for dungeons?
    The issue with this question is that Avoidance is providing more damage reduction than mastery.

    I would advocate mastery in both locations. The marginal decrease in incoming damage isn't worth the loss of predictability for that damage.
    Last edited by Booi; 12-15-2010 at 05:10 PM. Reason: Terminology muddling.

  5. #65
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    lets not jumble terminology, avoidance is not mitigation. avoidance is the chance to take 0 damage, mitigation is the ability to reduce incoming damage. what you're saying by avoidance is mitigation is not wholly true, while you reduce your overall damage taken during the duration of the fight, the individual scenarios of attacks are not being reduced in damage, they are either being avoided, or being fully hit. This is terminology we use here on the site, and would prefer if you don't bring in outside terms to prevent confusing new and old members.

    I've been reforging for mastery as well and haven't had complaints yet.

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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    lets not jumble terminology, avoidance is not mitigation. avoidance is the chance to take 0 damage, mitigation is the ability to reduce incoming damage.
    Another viewpoint would be that if the terms were chosen with accuracy, custom definitions would not be necessary.

    Custom definitions always point to a bad choice of terms; perhaps it's time to choose terms correctly.

  7. #67
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    Sorry, that statement was intended specifically for the mastery vs avoidance discussion.

    I was simply trying to state that reforging to avoidance is more damage reduction than reforging to mastery. I didn't mean to imply any EH aspect to the argument.

  8. #68
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    At first I reforged everything I could into Mastery, but then I read that until 4800 combined rating it's better to go Dodge/Parry. Really I'm still confused and not sure what to do. I guess for heroics it doesn't make a huge deal as for the most part as long as you're in the proper gear and executing the mechanics of the fight it probably won't matter which stat you stack, you should live(unless your healer is bad but then you're screwed either way).

  9. #69
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    Block is on a two roll system for block/crit block. This is why a lot of people are going dodge/parry into high-DR territory before going mastery. The gain from block just isn't worth it when compared to the gain from dodge/parry pre-DR.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Booi View Post


    Anyone know what this is from?

  11. #71
    ...it's from the Magmaw 25man raid boss...? (Does that answer your question? Haha)
    Last edited by Ghladum; 12-16-2010 at 10:42 AM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by SquishyTheTank View Post
    Anyone know what this is from?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghladum View Post
    ...it's from the Magmaw 25man raid boss...? (Does that answer your question? Haha)
    Sorry, I mean does anyone know what addon.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
    Another viewpoint would be that if the terms were chosen with accuracy, custom definitions would not be necessary.

    Custom definitions always point to a bad choice of terms; perhaps it's time to choose terms correctly.
    Avoidance = The chance to avoid all of the incoming damage of a hit.
    Mitigation = The guaranteed reduction of the incoming damage of a hit.
    Block = The chance on reduction of the incoming damage of a hit. (until Unhittability, which makes Block Mitigation)
    Damage Reduction = All of the above (added together)

    Avoidance & Mitigation might both be Damage Reduction, they are not the same!!
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  14. #74
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    Sorry, I mean does anyone know what addon.
    Looks like a screen shot of World of Logs (website) combatlog viewer.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
    Another viewpoint would be that if the terms were chosen with accuracy, custom definitions would not be necessary.

    Custom definitions always point to a bad choice of terms; perhaps it's time to choose terms correctly.
    You can't use the Merriam-Webster definition for terms used in an MMO.
    A world with a finite ruleset doesn't lend itself to definitions with infinte possibilities.

    This is obvious to see with some spell/ability names, but applies to all mechanics as well.
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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    Avoidance = The chance to avoid all of the incoming damage of a hit.
    Mitigation = The guaranteed reduction of the incoming damage of a hit.
    Block = The chance on reduction of the incoming damage of a hit. (until Unhittability, which makes Block Mitigation)
    Damage Reduction = All of the above (added together)
    The perils of a custom definition are many, and include a complete lack of communication. If, for instance, I decide to define "football" as "the chance to avoid all of the incoming damage of a hit", and use the word "football" wherever I mean what you are calling "avoidance", no communication will happen.

    Custom definitions are, in general, bad things.

    And now, specifics.

    avoid |əˈvoid|
    verb [ trans. ]
    1 keep away from or stop oneself from doing (something) : avoid excessive exposure to the sun | the kind of place that Robyn would normally have avoided like the plague.
    • contrive not to meet (someone) : boys lined up to meet Gloria, but avoided her bossy sister.
    • (of a person or a route) not go to or through (a place) : this route avoids downtown Boston.
    • prevent from happening : make the necessary adjustments to avoid an accident.
    2 Law repudiate, nullify, or render void (a decree or contract).
    DERIVATIVES
    avoidable adjective
    avoidably |-əblē| adverb
    avoidance |əˈvoidns| noun
    avoider noun
    ORIGIN late Middle English : from Old French evuider ‘clear out, get rid of,’ from vuide ‘empty’ (see void ).

    The choice of the word "avoidance" is, therefore, close. However, "avoidance" does not mean any "chance", it is a verb, and describes the act. Therefore, the choice of this word is fairly accurate, and we can agree that the choice is semi-accurate. But avoidance does not mean "the chance to avoid damage", it means avoiding the damage. So I would suggest you choose the phrase "the chance of avoidance".

    But that's me. I like to be understood.

    mitigation |ˌmitəˈgā sh ən|
    noun
    the action of reducing the severity, seriousness, or painfulness of something : the emphasis is on the identification and mitigation of pollution.

    There is no need for the word "guaranteed".

    We agree on what mitigation means, and it is a good choice.

    block |blδk|
    noun
    1 a large solid piece of hard material, esp. rock, stone, or wood, typically with flat surfaces on each side : a block of marble.
    • a sturdy, flat-topped block used as a work surface, typically for chopping food.
    • (usu. blocks) any of a set of solid cubes used as a child's toy.
    • a block of stone or low wooden steps from which a rider mounts a horse.
    • (usu. blocks) a starting block : the thrust a sprinter gets when coming out of the blocks.
    • Printing a piece of wood or metal engraved for printing on paper or fabric.
    • (also cylinder block or engine block) the main body of an internal combustion engine, containing the pistons.
    • a head-shaped mold used for shaping hats or wigs.
    2 the area bounded by four streets in a town or suburb : she went for a run around the block | ours was the ugliest house on the block.
    • the length of one side of such an area, typically as a measure of distance : he lives a few blocks away from the museum.
    3 [with adj. ] a building, esp. part of a complex, used for a particular purpose : a cell block.
    • chiefly Brit. a large single building subdivided into separate rooms, apartments, or offices : an apartment block.
    4 a large quantity or allocation of things regarded as a unit : a block of shares | [as adj. ] block grants.
    • Computing a large piece of text processed as a unit.
    • chiefly Brit. a set of sheets of paper glued along one edge, used for drawing or writing on : a sketching block.
    • an unseparated unit of at least four postage stamps in at least two rows, generally a group of four.
    5 an obstacle to the normal progress or functioning of something : substantial demands for time off may constitute a block to career advancement | an emotional block.
    • Sports a hindering or stopping of . . . [many more definitions ommitted]

    The word block does not include any chance, it is the act. Again, close.

    "Damage Mitigation" is a phrase, and we agree on what it means.

    Carry on.

  17. #77
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    The terms posted by WarTotem have long been in use, and are well understood by anyone that has bothered to read the guides here. There is no need to copy paste from the standard dictionary. Seriously.

  18. #78
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    There's a argument called "Debate" in which there is a discussion category entitled "Topicality." Now the purpose of topicality is to make sure that the affirmative team that is "upholding" the resolution remains within the topic of the resolution, therefore if a resolution is "Resolved: that the United States Federal Government should substantially increase subsidies for renewable energy" the affirmative team can not talk about mental health care, and thus the negative team has a reasonable chance at researching things that are tangential to the affirmative case.

    Within this argument of topicality, there is an argument called "contextual definition." The argument is that the team's definition of a word within the resolution is specifically referring to the topic and thus is a better definition because it comes from an expert source that actually deals with the specific subject matter. Referring to the previous examples, this would mean that a definition of "energy" in terms of renewable energies that comes from an expert on renewable energy is better than a common dictionary definition of "energy" that might refer to having people drink a lot of 5 hour energy drinks, would be be far outside the context of the resolution.

    So furthering this point, your (Jammer Six) definitions are taken WAY out of context. When talking specifically about tank theorycrafting, WarTotems definitions are the commonly accepted definitions in the realm of warrior theorycraft. In another context, they might not mean the same thing, just as your definitions (by the way I really like how many you had to dig up to find one that suited your needs).

    In the realm of what actually happens in game, "avoidance" is not guaranteed. Yes when you do dodge an attack it was an act and you did avoid it, but you're by no means guaranteed that chance to avoid. Block is the same way, except you're not completely avoiding the damage, you have a static chance as per your paper doll to block any given attack, it is not a guarantee, and when you do block said attack, you still take damage, just that damage is mitigated. Therefore block is a "chance to mitigate" damage.

    Again, within the context of warrior theorycraft, WarTotem's definitions are the correct ones and the ones most commonly used amongst all tank theorycrafters. It is pretty much agreed on. Glad we could straighten that out for you =D
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  19. #79
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    For me, there are two issues with gearing.

    1. Gemming:

    For Gemming, all the stats come into play: Stamina, Avoidance (Dodge/Parry) and Mastery. Currently, I am going to gem stamina (but with consideration to sockets) until convincingly proven wrong. For any raid environment in the history of this game, a massive healthpool makes everything easier. Large efficient heals, a reduction in the amount of overhealing particularly with crits, and increased time to death. Mana mattered back in vanilla wow, and even then stamina was king.

    2. Reforging

    For Reforging, stamina is taken out of the picture, so we are left to decide between Avoidance and Mastery. I think the jury is still out here, and all the math says that the relationship between the two is complicated and dynamic, at least for total damage reduction. I am going to hold off reforging for now, and let people argue. Currently I lean toward mastery, so that I will reforge to balance dodge and parry to reduce the DR, and then turning excess of either other stats (hit/expertise) into mastery.

    The bottom line is that heroics do not equal raids. Avoidance has always been more valuable in a heroic dungeon, where you are being less hard by multiple mobs. But in a raid, particularly a heroic raid, the boss hits hard and you are there to absorb that damage and not die.

  20. #80
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    Aggathon, if you have citations for those claims, I'd like to see them. The bait, of course, is that if you're correct, I'll concede the point.

    P.S. I didn't look very hard at all-- they're the definitions that come up automatically in the Dictionary application that comes free on Apple computers. It's a compilation (according to the app info) of the New Oxford American Dictionary and the Apple Dictionary.

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