Guild applications denied for wrong reason.

[Synistah]

So i have currently come out of quite a lengthy relationship with a Top 20 guild, Reason being i have completely a myriad of content along side them starting back from Burning Crusade and even before with various individual players, As Cataclysm approaches i feel that my days as a 'hardcore' raider are over, And that my burning desire to be all that has but faded away, Now this is not a bad thing because i have had my good share of experiences and am very happy with my accomplishments.

Moving right ahead, In leaving such a guild and not on the immediate or forseeable lookout for a guild of similar contention i have set my sights on some of the more remote servers and have begun applying to guilds with less stringent raiding tasks and rule sets, ideally a more casual raiding experience to what i am used to, yet a guild that can keep decent progression.

When applying to guilds such as this,For example 12/12 Heroic 10 and 10/12 Heroic 25 i proceed to apply via guild website and end with quite a lengthy application which in more cases then not requires me to post my overall raid experience and an armory link(I tend not to skip on details because i feel providing an in depth and quality application shows many of the skills required by a raider outside of a boss scenario). I continue to write up application after application and always seem to get the same answer which is based solely off the fact my armory is filled with "Realm First!" achievements, and exceedingly early World and US ranked Achievements on various bosses among much more which suddenly come to a halt with Icecrown Citadel as that is the time i began my slow retreat in raiding..

Many if not all the guilds i apply to immediately enquire as to why someone of my 'calibur' is applying to a guild like theirs and recommend i should be applying to the servers #1 guild.. I carry on to explain my situation and why i am looking to join. More often then not i am laughed at or not taken seriously which is often followed by comment in various form insinuating my account is purchased or of other illegitimate nature and that the expectations are i am merely a "noob with gear" and that my performance will be sub optimal or severely lacking in skill and/or experience.

Even upon requesting a trial to prove my worth and raiding capability i am often denied, only to be accepted in to guilds with extremely poor content progression who are seeking to pull in a well geared player to ease their own woes.

So i am coming to you TankSpot, for guidance or tips on how i can resolve this issue of being immediately labeled and discriminated against based on the quality and worth of my character rather then my skills as a raider and a fellow player. I am unable to find a middle ground and am stuck between the "LOL YEAH RIGHT" and then the guilds merely trying to fish out players of higher gear and experience standards to remedy their own lack.

Friends have suggested:

- I should completely exclude my raiding accomplishments which leaves me seemingly inexperienced
- I should remain guildless on the server i intend on transferring to and build a small reputation for myself as a skilled player rather then a decked out character.
- I should wait till Cataclysm hits due to there being more a leveled playing field as far as players go, As stated by Lore in a Weekly Marmot recently Cataclysm will result in there being only newly achieved level 85s, and no major gear separation.

** Final two are not ideal to my intentions as i like to get to know the people i will be raiding and playing with on a daily basis as strengthening friendships not only raid coherence is vital to aiding in being able to successfully clear content at a steady rate.

So i guess my final question in short is; Making yourself seem more appealing to a guild by achievements and skill, and experience is something we all try for and learn, But how do we make our achievements less appealing and less noticeable so that in the end it is our skill which is considered not the character that lays in front of it.



Any help would be appreciated as i am currently struggling to find a place as i shift gears from a raiding stand point.


*Wall of Text crits you for 56k*


Thanks

[Fayre]

I've recruited members in your situation in the past, so... perhaps this will help.

You have to understand that the natural reaction is going to be as you described. People will be wary of taking on someone with a very 'hardcore' raiding background, and be worried that you'll only stick it out until you realise how 'bad' they are. It's quite a daunting thing for a guild to have someone come into a raid who 'knows it all' and has 'been there, done that'.

However, a good guild leadership team will recognise that having a decent joiner like you may help them improve their raid. What perhaps you are looking for is a solid guild with ambitious leaders who are prepared to take a risk. You need to do your homework a bit about the guild and sell yourself as a match for their guild.

Try and emphasize the aspects of you as a person which make you suited to their guild in particular. No, don't hide the raiding achievements, but don't put them as the highest priority in the application, either. Explain your situation, explain more fully why you think their guild would benefit from you, explain that you're not going to take over or run for the hills when their folks struggle with something your old guild might have one-shot.

Oh, and if you can at all manage it, actually talking to the guild leadership about yourself ahead of an application might soothe their nerves.

It's always abit of a surprise when a 'too good' candidate lands on your doorstep, but it's never an unwelcome surprise! I'm sure you'll find a guild to welcome you in. Best of luck!

[Nez]

Another thing to consider is, would you really of wanted to join a guild that gave that sorta reaction without even talking to you first? They may of just saved you some time by letting you know what a bunch of dorks they are up front. Keep up the search and g/l!
=]

[Fenier]

Back in Everquest I was in a similar situation. I was in the second highest guild on the server, when that guild disbanded to move to a new game. I stayed behind. Drifted a bit. Still had an extensive amount of flags, keys and attunements. Was fairly well geared. Hung out with with friends for the most part, earned me some server firsts, but never really settled in to a new guild.

Eventually met my girlfriend, and apped to her guild (which at the time, was working on content I had done years ago). Raided with them. Hung out with them for nearly six months. Helped them unlock the end zone for the expansion they were working on, and so forth. Applied there. Was denied. Kinda funny how the healer which helps you for months drawing no loot is suddenly denied when they ask for a tag.

The primary reason was my knowledge of the game was higher then theirs, and while they were OK with my raiding with them, they didn't want me tagged.

My girlfriend and I did what any sensible person would do that that point. We started our own guild, recruited every other person the first guild rejected, and passed them in progression inside of three months. We proceeded to unlock 4 end zones prior to our calling it quits during Secrets of Fawyder. The first guild, seeing how successful we were, eventually imploded. By the time we had unlocked our second end zone, they had ceased to be a force capable of raiding.

With Cata coming up, you could start looking for people now, and level with them post launch. It may allow you to construct a raid team and be ready to go come 85. If that's not for you (and it may not be) I do with you the best, as it's exceptionally hard to get a chance with some people when they think you are just going to get tired of them down the road, and bail.

[Aggathon]

Suggestion: come raid with Terra, Nez, and I, imo =P

Honestly, I feel your pain. I straight up didn't apply to guilds until I applied to Terra's, and I knew him before the app and what his guild was like, otherwise I think I may have faced a similar situation.

[Insahnity]

Honestly, I would wait for Cata itself, lots of people have gone on vacation until then, only the people who want to finish the content are left (the latter of your scenarios, struggling to finish). At best, you might find a guild doing the runs on their umpteenth alt for achievements.

If you have the stomach, level an alt and build your reputation with that, and once you have found a good home then reveal the existence of your server first toon. Otherwise, option #2 (remain guildless and build a rep) is my next choice. Finally, hang around places like Tankspot or other community sites, read the posts of people who appear to closely match your goals and skill level, and work from there. At your skill level, it becomes less about competency and more about guild dynamics, and the guild relations section as a whole is quite telling in terms of how people here run their guilds (and many quite differently).

[Synistah]

Thanks guys, All the input is great. Its truly amazing to know there are people out there have have been through the same situation and knowing that there is a road out is quite uplifting in an otherwise dire circumstance.

I think i may give some of these a try, Using an alt to prove my worth skill wise sounds like a nice idea so that people are not masked by my achievements and the dates attached to them.. And i may also just give building a rep a try seeing as i can offer my services as a Healer and as an experienced raider to PUGs and Guilds filling spaces using trade recruitment in order to down that last boss or two before Cataclysm hits.

If all else fails, I will just have to take up Aggy's idea =D

[Arthalion]

Honestly, i can't understand why the guilds that have more or less rejected your application haven't even given you a trial. With a little research and effort spent trying to contact members of your previous guild to confirm your claims, they have essentially thrown away a lifetime opportunity to improve their guilds.

All i can ask is: how picky were you when you looked for guilds to apply to in the first place ? Simply, because while i can't concieve they didn't even give you a trial, i can understand skepticism from a declining unfinished ICC guild, where the morale is likely to be low and general perspective upon their own guild to be bad.

With cata around, i don't know if its simply a trend, ease of content and game features, or simply the player base aging on past their hardcore days ... but i feel there's alot more players nowdays that a bit like you still want to enjoy decent level of raiding, but who don't want to bother to bear with a nasty schedule. I know it sounds cheezy that i would say it is my guild's (and their members) position for cataclysm, but my main point here is: if you really look for the guild that suits exactly what you're looking for, rather than simply toning down the wowprogress ranking, you might find your new home.

Good signs for what you may look for can be as much the quality of guild description on wowprogress/recruitment threads, the overall professionalism with which they treat (though obviously, hasn't been much the case i believe). None of this is probably new to you, idk i guess im simply amazed how at the eve of an expansion, some seem to forget that having a healthy roster is important, unless they already had 3+ of the same class/specc that you applied as.

But nevertheless, if you do not find something suitable before cata hits, just waiting it out IS not a bad plan. Expansions have been known to sweep a server's guild roster. Being un-guilded while doing whatever players do at the start of a new expansion, will not go unnoticed for long.

[Bung]

I think I understand where you are going with this, but to me there is a separation between the hardcore and the casual guilds. The hardcore guilds are the show up for 100% of the scheduled times, yelling at people that mess up, rarely changing players so that progress continues. Casual guilds are usually not progressed, although sometimes enough of the members are decent enough to progress a bit for a while. Then what happens is the more serious raiders seek out hard core guilds and leave and the causal guild either falls apart or recruits so often that they never get past a certain point in progression. I think if you choose to be casual about raiding you have to accept what you get. On more populated servers sometimes pugs will do better than guilds. I have the following suggestions for you.

1. Apply to guilds as a serious raider. When they need someone to sit out volunteer (allowing you to be more casual)
2. Start your own 10 man guild for cata with people you might know who are skilled but don't want a 2nd job.
3. Just pug it when you want to raid. If you have as good a reputation as it appears, people should really want to help them when they are short for raids.

[Illidra]

i did this a while back, i was in a 10/12 hc guild and i made an application to a guild that had 11/12 normal.

it was easier for me as my old guild master was in there and he kncked back the questions of wether my account was legit.

i had their vice gm say these exact words 'your application was very impressive, and your progress is too. why the fuck are you applying to us? lol'

i simply said how id hit a wall with raiding excessive horus and that i wanted to shift to a smaller raid hour commitment that would free up my time for other interests and i thought that id rather join a guild where my friends where and be able to help when possible, than join a random guild with just internet research to go by.

try emphasising that you want a guild with less raid hours / better suited hours.

never say less intensive progress focus as your reason, as many of the less advanced guilds can take that as an insult, they may see themselves as progress focussed and not having achieved it yet whereas they may come across to others as more casual.

[praetoria]

hey great news! my guild accepted your application!! no questions asked.. come on over.

[Trisnics]

Speaking as a guild leader with a guild in a somewhat similar progression point to what you are looking for I can understand what the guilds who declined you were thinking. In my opinion they should have been a bit more open minded, and should have at least spoken with you and trialed with you, however I can also see why they wouldn't.

To explain more about my guild, we are 2 night a week, 3 hour a night, raiding guild. We are 12/12 HM ICC10 and 9/12HM ICC25. We take things seriously but do not yell at people. Our atmosphere is relaxed in general.

While many people may not agree, our guild members don't think we are "bad" or we would have a higher turnover. We have a very low turnover of actual raiders and have only had 1 core member leave for a more progressed guild, ever. We also have a good server rep and 10+ applications a week with minimal recruitment effort.

Anyway... we have on occasion had people with server firsts etc apply. We have in the past trialed these people, found that they performed well in our trial runs, and then ginvited them. This is when we find one of three things happening:

1) This is the most common. They simply stop showing up and quickly. We only raid 2 nights a week but they do not log on at all, or do not show to raids. We end up having to remove them for inactivity. They were clearly burnt out and in reality wanted to stop raiding.

2) They talk down to our raiders and feel superior. They suggest strategies which we sometimes attempt but do not find work well for our guild (although we are willing to try them but not every strategy works for every guild) and they don't usually do it in private either. We end up no longer inviting them, or gremoving them. A lot of the time they are very vocal with their dissatisfaction.

3) They gquit and move on to some really unprogressed (I'm talking 7/12 normal ICC10), super casual start up guild, this one is more common then anyone who hasn't seen it would believe.

To the OP who I realize may not be reading this as that message was posted a month ago, the strategies you are following will likely get you into the guild you want. While I would likely try you out in my guild and provide you with the environment it sounds like you're looking for, I just wanted to explain where these recruiters are likely coming from.

[Songstrezz]

First off, a raider of your achievement, like others have said, can be intimidating. My guild has a 8/12 ICC normal progression and we caught the eye of someone like you. When they contacted me letting me know why they wanted into our guild, I was hesitatant at first. He said he wanted to raid for fun, not to make it a job. Our guild, we take new players. Our tank is only 5 months old in wow terms, but he has turned out to be the best tank I could ask for, but he doesn't have experience. I was afraid that I would bring in this big, bad 80 with years of raid experience behind him and scare away some of our best raiders.

Well, let me tell you, it didn't scare anyone away, it made us stronger. Just keep your head up, you will find a home. ^^ Do like your friends suggested. Remain guildless and build up a rep for yourself. We took our experienced player because he was an overall good player and chose to raid with our guild before inquiring about needs and wants for our guild. Also he was fun to be around. Most guilds that are 'casual' like to have fun and relax and dont flip out when they wipe or struggle with content. They might be afraid you will flip out if they are not on scale with your old guild. I know we all relate past experiences with current ones. Its human nature. But there is a guild out there for you, if not, do like I did and just start one and instill values in it that you think are essenital to a guilds survival. ^^

[Synistah]

Good to see long after my original post the good advice has come through and you will all be pleased to know, i build a small rep for myself on my new home server and am currently building a repertoire with a guild socially getting to know the players themselves, how they work and how we can compliment what we each bring to the table for one another.

So far so good and i think i will enjoy my new raiding lifestyle come Cataclysm.

[Ferim]

glad to hear that you found a home!

[Bluedot]

glad to hear that you found a home!

[gacktt]

Gladiators and people who were from much higher guilds that are applying are usually suspicious because of ego/skill/ebaymaybe issues.