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Thread: Vengeance, awkward?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by immerc View Post
    My main concern with vengeance is that it is such an awkward mechanic and seems to reward bad decisions. Their stated reason for wanting vengeance is that as damage dealers pick up more gear, the damage they deal will keep going up, while as tanks pick up more gear, since their gear focuses more on mitigation and avoidance, they won't scale as well. The problem is, better gear means more avoidance. More avoidance means vengeance stacks up more slowly, and has a higher risk of falling off. If they wanted vengeance to make our threat scale up better as we got better gear, shouldn't it be based off the damage we avoid? Afterall, that's the stat that gets better as our gear improves.
    I find threat is a non-issue in the long term even if vengeance were to fall off. You mentioned that threat is an issue during initial pick up at least in the current stage. Its that min or few seconds that really matter to sustain the mob to you. As a fight progresses I find myself miles ahead of dps in terms of threat. So I still don't find the issue of avoidance affecting vengeance as a big problem. Sure the two mechanics might under power one another but the issue is that vengeance doesn't stack quickly enough to ensure that initial threat.

    Now I don't have any data on how threat relates to 85 so things might change but single target fights I simply don't worry about at 80 only that first few initial seconds like you mentioned. I do disagree that threat has to be a constant battle like it was in pre-wrath. Tank threat seemed to be the cap for how much raid damage could be put out and I do not think threat should determine that factor. I also feel that it should not be ignored totally and I'm having a very hard time imagining an in between solution just because inexperienced tanks might have a very hard time maintaining it.

    Like you said DPS needs to learn to "wait for sunders" but teaching players to do that is a lot harder since they had the experience of wrath. DPS will all to soon blame the tank for poor tanking than themselves if they were to die.
    Last edited by Nuke; 10-27-2010 at 12:54 PM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by immerc View Post
    My main concern with vengeance is that it is such an awkward mechanic and seems to reward bad decisions. Their stated reason for wanting vengeance is that as damage dealers pick up more gear, the damage they deal will keep going up, while as tanks pick up more gear, since their gear focuses more on mitigation and avoidance, they won't scale as well. The problem is, better gear means more avoidance. More avoidance means vengeance stacks up more slowly, and has a higher risk of falling off. If they wanted vengeance to make our threat scale up better as we got better gear, shouldn't it be based off the damage we avoid? Afterall, that's the stat that gets better as our gear improves.
    With the changes to parry, dodge is the only stat which provides 100% mitigation so you will still be gaining vengeance on everything except for a dodge. Armor, blocks and parries will slow down the rate at which you gain vengeance but what you gain in survivability far outwieghs what you lose in tps/dps. Even with the inflated aviodance rates on live vengeance still doesn't 'fall off' as it's an average over time and the odd dodge here and there won't affect much.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vorps View Post
    After some extensive playing at 80 after 4.0.1, it seems like Vengeance is not there when you need it the most. That being, at the beginning of a fight...when you're going through the motions to establish initial aggro. That said, I'd like to address a few responses that Blizzard has made on the subject.



    Couple points in here really bug me. For one, 'it shouldn't feel mandatory.' If it isn't mandatory, then why even have it in the first place? Either it is needed or it isn't.

    If it is, then how are tanks supposed to be capable when Vengeance and misdirection/tricks are not present.[/I]
    A) By not being bad
    B) By playing with dpsers who have a modicrum understanding of the concept of threat

    If it isn't, then once you've established initial aggro and Vengeance builds up...maintaining threat will never become an issue. Which is in-line with how consistantly getting misdirection/tricks used to be, however it contradicts other statements that have been made about design goals for having aggro be something tanks must work for to maintain. So that good tanks can take pride in being able to generate good amounts of TPS/DPS, akin to how things were back in TBC.
    Actually the devs have stated that they dont want aggro to be an issue throughout the fight a la TBC. They feel this places too much emphasis on tank vs. dps and would rather having players fighting the encounter than each other. Initial aggro at the start of the fight and when adds spawn should be something that needs to be handled properly which was never a problem with MD and tricks in WOTLK. The new design actually works out much better to achieving the style of gameplay blizz wants.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by fengosa View Post
    With the changes to parry, dodge is the only stat which provides 100% mitigation so you will still be gaining vengeance on everything except for a dodge. Armor, blocks and parries will slow down the rate at which you gain vengeance but what you gain in survivability far outwieghs what you lose in tps/dps. Even with the inflated aviodance rates on live vengeance still doesn't 'fall off' as it's an average over time and the odd dodge here and there won't affect much.
    You have dated info and some slightly sloppy language. =)

    Parry is the same as Dodge, just in a different gem color. They are both 100% avoid when they happen, and they have identical rating values and diminishing curves.

    An avoid is not called "mitigation" to differentiate between that and the damage reducing effect of armor/block etc. It's semantics, but just to make sure we don't muddy the water.

    Your message is correct, though, the scale of avoidance makes it so that it has a very minimal negative effect on the designed nature of Vengeance (as a long term threat buff that has to build up).
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  5. #25
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    I think there is a lack of understanding of the intent of vengeance going on based on the number of people bringing up initial threat. It's not meant to deal with that at all, the blues have said that several times. The intent is simle... In raid tier 1 tanks do 2k dps while the rouge does 4k. That's fine the tank's threat mod will account for that.

    Now the next tier comes along and the tank increases survival stats and the rogue goes for dps stats. Now the tank does 2.5k while the rogue does 6k. The next tier makes it worse, and even worse the 4th tier.

    In the current world threat is a joke. But if we are to believe trust down the road threat will be an issue a tank doing 4k dps will not be able to hold off a dps doing 25k.

    Not to say vengeance isn't clunky but it's not intended to solve the issue you're taking about with initial threat.

    O think what they want to move from is the model where tricks and md are used every cool down rather then only on the initial pull. These are intended to solve the short term initial pull threat problem.

    Think about these two situations: a raid with 5 hunters or rogues and raid with 0. If the tank has to rely on tricks and md through the entire fight then the first raid will be fine but the second raid is going to be threat capped even if they are smart and all the dps gives the tank 10 seconds for initial agro... unless the tank's own threat is able to keep up. Vengeance allows that second raid to not be threat capped and over come the low initial threat by just not being stupid and waiting a second or two before going off.

    The only issue I've had really is it makes tank switching goofy. But I just learned to stop pressing buttons for a few seconds after I'm taunted off of. Threat management applies to us at that point the same as it does to dps.

    As far as the amount of ap we get from it, you will never hear me say "yeah I think that buff gives me too much attack power" though, the decay mechanic could use some tweaking.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    You have dated info and some slightly sloppy language. =)

    Parry is the same as Dodge, just in a different gem color. They are both 100% avoid when they happen, and they have identical rating values and diminishing curves.
    I'm working under the assumption that parry reduced 50% on current hit and 50% on next hit. Did they go back to the previous model of parry as in WOTLK?

  7. #27
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    That was reverted a while back. parry remains 100% avoidance, some flavors are added to make sure it is slightly different to dodge, like the talent Hold the line.

    I think Blizzard is trying to avoid a situation where, relying on threat modifiers, tanks and dps threats are basically running parallel to each other and become meaningless. I think vengeance is the bastard (and currently unloved) child of the earlier threat design, when they talked about threat decay over time and before every tank is running with a 200% threat modifier as baseline. In this scenario, vengeance would be hell lot more meaningful, where dps will have to manage their spike threat by gauging the gradually increasing tank threat.

    I guess Blizzard decided that would be to difficult for players

  8. #28
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    Perhaps this is just an issue with Thunder Clap not hitting hard enough anymore, or at level 80?

    Shockwave also has changed in that it is only hitting targets directly in front of you, instead of everything in front of you like it did pre-4.0.1.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by fengosa View Post
    I'm working under the assumption that parry reduced 50% on current hit and 50% on next hit. Did they go back to the previous model of parry as in WOTLK?
    They killed that way back even before Beta started. They did not like the way it felt or played. It felt antithetical. Currently Parry and Dodge do the same thing, the same way (even Parry haste is gone), they just come in different colors.

    I expect they may find a way to differentiate them later, since two identical stats with different names seems less dynamic, but we'll see. There have been no immediately public plans to do so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
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  10. #30
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    Mechanically, PH is alive and well. Both on live/beta.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlitp View Post
    Mechanically, PH is alive and well. Both on live/beta.
    If by PH you mean Parry Haste, you'll have to document that since Blizzard specifically took it out, and said so.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  12. #32
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    Tanked the blind dragon last night. It is mostly a tank and spank with an air phase every 90 seconds or so then you have to avoid damage.
    With no hunter and rogues in the group it was a little challenging to hold initial threat, vengeance falls off during air phase due to the long flight time.
    Fortunately I bought some spare rep epics and reforged+gem them with +hit and expertise ahead of time. So I put those on and threat problem is solved.

    Lesson learned.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri
    Quote Originally Posted by tlitp
    Mechanically, PH is alive and well. Both on live/beta.
    If by PH you mean Parry Haste, you'll have to document that since Blizzard specifically took it out, and said so.
    Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

  14. #34
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    Your first PH actually has a swing speed of 1.42, while a single Parry with a 2.6 weapon should not give you anything under 1.56 swing speed.
    Where does this 10% Haste come from?
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