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Thread: Vengeance, awkward?

  1. #1
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    Vengeance, awkward?

    After some extensive playing at 80 after 4.0.1, it seems like Vengeance is not there when you need it the most. That being, at the beginning of a fight...when you're going through the motions to establish initial aggro. That said, I'd like to address a few responses that Blizzard has made on the subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by blizzcon 2010
    Q: Are you happy with Vengeance right now for tanks? It punishes survival gearing especially.
    Gearing for survival vs threat has always been a tradeoff to an extent, block and expertise vs dodge and parry gear. Having to make that tradeoff is interesting, but when Vengeance falls off it does feel crappy.

    Vengeance is a rolling average over time, so a few dodges and parries shouldn't hurt you. That said it shouldn't feel mandatory. It's to help tanks feel like they're scaling more with DPS.

    With Wrath you had Misdirect and Tricks, and we want that to be more on the tanks shoulders to generate more threat and do decent damage at the same time.
    Couple points in here really bug me. For one, 'it shouldn't feel mandatory.' If it isn't mandatory, then why even have it in the first place? Either it is needed or it isn't.

    If it is, then how are tanks supposed to be capable when Vengeance and misdirection/tricks are not present. Which is also contradictory to placing grabbing initial aggro more on the 'tanks' shoulders.'

    If it isn't, then once you've established initial aggro and Vengeance builds up...maintaining threat will never become an issue. Which is in-line with how consistantly getting misdirection/tricks used to be, however it contradicts other statements that have been made about design goals for having aggro be something tanks must work for to maintain. So that good tanks can take pride in being able to generate good amounts of TPS/DPS, akin to how things were back in TBC.

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostcrawler
    We don't want tank threat to be so high that the dps are absolved of all responsibility. If players are on the wrong targets, that is a L2P problem. If the mage opens with Arcane Blast before you even get a hit in, that is a L2P problem. If your group feels like they have to wait 6-10 seconds before they can start attacking, then that's either a tank problem or a problem on our end. Likewise, if your group feels constantly throttled several seconds or minutes into the fight, then either you aren't generating as much threat as you are capable of, or our numbers are preventing you from doing so.(source)
    Right now it feels like threat w/o Vengeance is not good enough, and with Vengeance it is too good. So, is this a level 80 vs. 85 issue? If not, is it awkward to potentially shift DPS classes back into waiting until things are locked down and some Vengeance is attained before attacking?

    I'm not as concerned about threat being a non-issue once the fight is underway and you can put out obscene amounts of TPS because Vengeance being built up. However, struggling and sometimes just outright not being able to establish initial aggro is a pretty serious concern.

    Perhaps certain classes are not tuned properly for this scenario and are putting out more burst than they do at level 85. Maybe at 85 things work better during the initial portions of an encounter. Though if long-term threat is to be something used to determine tank skill, I highly doubt it will be much of a challenge to maintain high threat once Vengeance is built up. Even at level 85.

    The way Vengeance is designed bothers me tremendously. It is very contradictory. It's there to help you scale with DPS, yet it's not there at the start of a fight, regardless that DPS is still pretty much just as threat-heavy in the starting portions of an encounter. It's also labeled as not being mandatory and is considered to be a raid mechanic, though you would think that abilities would be designed with Vengeance in mind, leaving them sub-par for when Vengeance is not present. Otherwise, they will be too good with Vengeance present.

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostcrawler
    The reason we keep downplaying Vengeance in 5-player dungeons, which is all anyone is running at the moment on beta, is because it's not a dungeon mechanic. If you need a comparison, think of something like Fortitude or Blessing of Kings. It's nice but not at all mandatory for even heroic 5-player runs. It's pretty close to mandatory for a raid.(source)
    The issue here is that aggro still exists outside of raids. Vengeance is going to impact it, whether it is intended solely as a raid mechanic or not. Perhaps it's just level 80, but aggro issues are definitely present outside of raids. Mostly at the beginning of multiple mob scenarios. Even in raids, I would say it is problematic before Vengeance gets to a reasonable amount, or cannot build to a reasonable amount. (i.e.: trash/Valithria)

    This is why Vengeance's current design bothers me, and in my opinion, feels incredibly awkward. It's either not there when you need it the most, or it is too amazing. The middle ground doesn't really come into play. Either you engage a group of mobs and they slip away because you have little Vengeance, or it's built up and you're putting out TPS that no one is going to touch.

    Suggestion:
    I am thinking that there might need to be a way to instantly gain some amount of Vengeance w/o taking damage. For instance, whenever you use shouts/plea/enrage/horn you would gain 25% of max Vengeance. If used once your Vengeance is beyond 25% of max it only gives the other benefits, and does not raise Vengeance any further.

    Vengeance also may need to be toned down some at max. Though, this could just be a result of double dipping from the ICC buff. But looking at some of the beta footage, tank DPS is probably out of control.

    Here's an example of a paladin tank leading DPS on Halfus.


    I dunno about you all, but I'd definitely rather sacrifice some of Vengeance's top end to be able to utilize it better at encounter initiation.
    Last edited by Vorps; 10-25-2010 at 03:48 AM.

  2. #2
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    Vengeance does feel awkward, and even illogical right now.

    Something that scales with incoming damage that is ideally supposed to scale with the TPS of the people below you, will never even out in any form of fair balance when it comes to skill vs not-making-it-too-hard mentality that blizzards seems to run with these days.

    Average tank TPS should be relatively equal (if done adequately) to the average DPSes TPS on the same gear level. Having a flat-out static threat multiplier on, for example, Defensive Stance does accomplish this without letting tank dps grow too high.

    On paper, making tanking gear+talents x% lower on damage-output compared to pure dps gear+talents, then multiplying threat by that same x% should create all the needed balance.

    This especially works well for warriors since 90% of their threat seems to come from pure damage now. A mechanic like Vengeance just makes that balance bounce all over the place.

    Higher geared DPS should need to hold back to prevent overaggro.
    Lower geared DPS should be able to go all out.
    Equally geared DPS should live for the chase.

    Why create complications with things like Vengeance in the first place? Tank gear is as much part of progression as anything, and should provide the necessary scaling; not some silly mechanic.

    On another note, innitial aggro should be tricky in my opinion. And 5mans have always required more effort from a tank than any average raiding encounter has. (No I'm not talking about post TBC and Pre 4.0.1 faceroll AoE fest)

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    i have to say, blizz screwed the pooch on this one. the real problem is dps, not tanks.. the simple resolve is, when tanks pull no one dose anything at all for 7 seconds.. problem solved. but being as most dps that joined mid wrath have no concept of aggro managment,and want to unload a blaze of glory in the first 10 seconds, vengeance is causing a problem.

    from a tanking point of view, its makes very little sence that blizz would buff most dps classes with a lot of burst, and then give tanks no snap threat. souns like one person didnt knnow what the other was doing. honestly feems like someone got lazy
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    I like the way it works myself. I like seeing 7k+ DPS at the end of a fight instead of 3k. Initial aggro problems is a simple function of DPS just waiting a bit. What is wrong with that? Give the tank a head start and there is no problem. I also enjoy the challenged of having to actually try to gather things up quickly and establish control. Thank you Blizzard for making tanking a bit more challenging again. Wait till level 85, for which these mechanics are designed for, before making a judgement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nez
    I like seeing 7k+ DPS at the end of a fight instead of 3k.
    The problem here is relativity, and how Vengeance nearly throws that out of the window.

    You like seeing 7k DPS instead of 3k? Congrats! You just got handed that extra 4k DPS on a silver platter because you apparently posses the skill to apply a buff to another player.

    Sorry if that sounded harsh and uncalled for, but I'm merely trying to point out the meaninglessness of that 'earned' extra 4k. If the sole purpose of Vengeance is there for us to feel better about ourselves and the effort we put in, through higher numbers on meters, then it effectively failed.

    I'd much rather see 3k on recount, and feel I am solely responsible for that 3k and the threat that came with that.

  6. #6
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    The buff is a good one and a long time needed one as well. The way I read into is that they are wanting more of a challenge at the beginning of the fight for agro and placement. I.e. More skill at the start. After the fight is underway the same skill is used for the boss encounter. I will say this though if the fights are tank&spank then the later part of the fight is going to be a bore to some degree for us tanks.

    Blizzard did come up with a way to off set this high tps gain we received later on in the fight. It was their idea of threat decay now if they could of pushed it into the vengeance buff it would be an all around win. Because after the buff starts stacking up your threat decays as well to offset it. This would give us more dps so to give us higher tps when the decay hits. If they could manage to make it where our theat would be able consistently they that would be a good first start. I.e. as your venagence buff stacks so does a threat decay amount stack to offset the high tps you gain.

    Its like a game of plus and minus. The more you don't do the more it hurts if you have the vegence buff up but if you do everthing right you stay consistent or maybe higher. Thus this would give the skill back to the tanks to actually have fun in the encounter. They even menition vengeance wasn't for 5 mans so the threat decay doesn't occur in 5 mans but only in raids when the vegence buff is up on you for a longer period of time. Then the tanks wouldn't be bored if there threat was to go to zero or worse they started losing threat.

    Anyways the idea here is vengeance while it is there it was given to us so they could balance all tank dps to be consist across the board. I.e. you bring this tank on this fight because he does better dps then this tank. Even though the issue is that at the beginning of the fight there is agro issue since when in wotlk was agro after the fight has went on for more then 3mins been an issue for many of us? Its always the start and I don't think that will ever change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by santoro2984 View Post
    i have to say, blizz screwed the pooch on this one. the real problem is dps, not tanks.. the simple resolve is, when tanks pull no one dose anything at all for 7 seconds.. problem solved. but being as most dps that joined mid wrath have no concept of aggro managment,and want to unload a blaze of glory in the first 10 seconds, vengeance is causing a problem.

    from a tanking point of view, its makes very little sence that blizz would buff most dps classes with a lot of burst, and then give tanks no snap threat. souns like one person didnt knnow what the other was doing. honestly feems like someone got lazy
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  8. #8
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    So, create a debuff to counter a buff to counter a debuff-- that sounds more like a mini-game to me.

    Retardness of DPS aside: ie them failing to understand that their 2 threat against the tank's 1 threat equals aggro.

    Innitial aggro issues are only due to two things. Either a parry/dodge/miss by the tank against the mob in question, which in most cases can be secured by a pre-emptive taunt. Or a failed multitasking effort from the tanks part on multiple targets.

    Fixing those two things mentioned is the same as aiding handicapped players, and making things easier for them. Effectively removing the 'skill' out of the game. (Or should I say 'the need for common sense'?)

    I remember TBC being a constant push for threat, from 100% till 0%. If Blizzard wants to randomize that threat-gain/loss relative to the DPS by a minigame-esque mechanic that seemingly fluctuates the simple knowledge of 1 threat being equal to 1 threat... I call that redundant.

  9. #9
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    Thing is, first and foremost a tank's job is to hold aggro and take damage. I do not have any problems with something adding cool-factor through DPS, but to me there is more enjoyment out of a mechanic that actually helps me perform my main roles.

    If feeling good about doing more DPS comes at the cost of feeling crappy because aggro is all over the place, regardless of performing optimally...that is not worth it, imo.

    The problem with having DPS wait before they start attacking is that people have moved out of that mentality. It has become normal for tanks to lock mobs down immediately, and for DPS to begin doing damage right off the bat. So now, even if it is the DPS at fault for pulling aggro because they didn't wait, that doesn't stop the tank and/or others from feeling as if they are doing their job poorly. I don't like DPS having control over threat, especially in PUG situations.

    I went into a heroic 5-man the other night. Every single pull a DK was pulling absolutely everything off of me because his AoE was generating more threat than mine because Vengeance could never build up to a reasonable amount. (yes he was in Frost Presence) I utilized Vigilance to chain taunt things off him constantly, and he survived the entire instance. Even though I managed, I felt like things were nearly out of my control and that I was an absolutely terrible tank - it was very frustrating.

    I've tanked throughout all of TBC and WotLK, and have always been revered as an exceptional player and tank. I've never been in a situation that made me feel this way, until 4.0.1 released.

    On the flip side, tanking single targets is a complete joke. Blizzard stated they want boss tanking to feel more like it did in TBC where DPS are constantly riding a tank's threat. It's nowhere close to that. Tanks blaze beyond DPS threat, and if it's on a boss that happens to hit hard enough to boost Vengeance to max... tank threat is numerous times over DPS.

    Also, threat decay never made it past initial testing. It's not in live; it's not in beta. It's done for now.
    Last edited by Vorps; 10-25-2010 at 10:35 AM.

  10. #10
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    I understand why blizzard dropped the threat decay it was too much change at one time. They did say they may revisit it later on. But I would agree until dps understand that they need to wait (i.e. 5 sec rule) to give tanks time to get agro. The problem i see is that in 5 mans I notice you really don't need a full time tank besides the bosses, trash is so minimal for tanking. Heck the thing about 5 mans it is I wear my dps gear instead.

    Its so funny in TBC you had to watch threat at the start and during the fight. When Wotlk hit we didnt need to worry about threat at all and very barely at the start of the fight. Now come caty we have initial agro to a degree but the longer the fight goes on the more our TPS goes to insane levels. It almost seems like we are doing the testing of how agro does. If anything I think caty will be still the point where tanks will focus on max dps instead of tps once the threat has reached the insane levels.

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    by the way, just hope that that mind controlled hunter doesn't do tranq shot on you when you have a full vengeance stack - Tranquillising shot dispels vengeance, and prevents it stacking for 20 seconds. Just tested it

    Last edited by Fetzie; 10-26-2010 at 03:58 PM.

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    The solution is clear. Make initial tank skills hit harder, and give less of a vengeance boost. I think level 85 on live will be balanced to this.

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    While I won't ever complain about getting a damage buff, especially one this big, Vengeance does seem a little off. It's almost as though it scales backwards; I feel almost crippled without it off the pull, but later in the fight I could eat a sandwich with my new 5-8k attack power. Basically I'm strained and working too hard without it (granted vs. a couple DPS that somewhat significantly outgear my warrior), but hardly have to work at all once that Vengeance stack starts rolling.

    The problem in my mind is that the only time you really NEED a threat boost is off the pull, when everyone's trinkets proc, cooldowns are popped etc. You shouldn't have too much trouble holding threat off your DPS after their trinkets get desynchronized and so on, especially if Blizzard is going to feed us a buff like Vengeance.

    For the record, this isn't a "qq buff warriors" post. I would actually like a world where I need to stay on top of my priority list and push threat throughout the entire encounter. It just feels backwards to me right now. Maybe Warriors need some sort of revamped Bloodrage, or a less suicidal Recklessness? A "dps cooldown" for tanks?

  14. #14
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    I think it would be cool if vengeance worked opposite of how it works now. You start the fight with attack power equal to 10% of your total health (like a rogue's energy bar) and as mobs hit you it decays in the same way it increases now. So you'd have huge initial burst threat but as the fight went on you'd have to settle into your rotation and manage your tanking abilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludy View Post
    I think it would be cool if vengeance worked opposite of how it works now. You start the fight with attack power equal to 10% of your total health (like a rogue's energy bar) and as mobs hit you it decays in the same way it increases now. So you'd have huge initial burst threat but as the fight went on you'd have to settle into your rotation and manage your tanking abilities.
    You'd have tanks taunt switching just to keep up the buff, and bad tanks would slow down too much in heroic dungeons, to let the buff stack back up. Yuck.
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    Good points Reev. I guess as it stands now it's just a gimmick to give us more dps. It's cool I guess but it seems they made it specifically for bosses which in reality no tanks needed help with threat on bosses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vorps View Post
    After some extensive playing at 80 after 4.0.1, it seems like Vengeance is not there when you need it the most. That being, at the beginning of a fight...when you're going through the motions to establish initial aggro.
    All the rest aside, this has generally been my issue. I have never had pressing threat concerns, but Blizzard seems to feel that it was a long-term issue with dps creeping up on the tank that was an issue. That is what Vengeance is designed to adjust for on longer fights.

    Personally, it always seemed to me that the only time you *ever* had issues with threat were in the short-term with flash crits and the like when you're still setting up shop.

    Because it is not the design though, their point is that you should not *need* Vengeance in the short-term, so it shouldn't be "mandatory" or reliable.

    So ask yourself, do you need more threat? Do you need more when you start? If so, Vengeance is not designed to help you. Do you need more down the stretch? Then Vengeance *is* designed to help you, and it should unless you found some weird broken situation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    You'd have tanks taunt switching just to keep up the buff, and bad tanks would slow down too much in heroic dungeons, to let the buff stack back up. Yuck.
    It could re-apply once it fell off though.
    Something like the Rogue Combat talent maybe?
    Vengeance: Increases your Attack Power by 10% of your max HP. Taking damage reduces this effect by 2% of the damage taken. Leaving combat or being without Vengeance for 10 seconds reapplies this effect.

    It solves OT damage, initial threat and still allows you to scale with your gear. Furthermore, it does not need automatic DR , making it much more transparent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    It could re-apply once it fell off though.
    Something like the Rogue Combat talent maybe?
    Vengeance: Increases your Attack Power by 10% of your max HP. Taking damage reduces this effect by 2% of the damage taken. Leaving combat or being without Vengeance for 10 seconds reapplies this effect.

    It solves OT damage, initial threat and still allows you to scale with your gear. Furthermore, it does not need automatic DR , making it much more transparent.
    The reason I see vengeance at full stacks being a problem would be the fact that there are two aspects to the game PVP and PVE. If a tank for example a warrior runs in at a full vengeance stack and shield slams a cloth that hit could potentially one shot them (Back to Block Value stacking problem). It just causes problems in the PVP aspect of the game to keep vengeance at full and reduce it through damage.

    I would suggest implementing a tank threat scalier depending on the mobs HP %. The more health said mob has the more threat said skill does and link it to tanking type skills. So over time during the fight skills would produce less threat till they hit the low point. I understand there might have to be some fine tuning for dungeons and raids to make this work.
    Last edited by Nuke; 10-27-2010 at 10:15 AM. Reason: Added my suggestion

  20. #20
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    Vengeance still seems like a bad design to me. I don't understand what problem Blizzard was trying to solve.

    First of all, for most tanks, your first few GCDs in any somewhat serious fight are almost always going to be relatively low threat. You need to apply your initial debuffs (demo roar, thunder clap, sunder armor, icy touch), get the boss positioned, and wait for the procs or stacks that allow you to use higher threat moves: revenge, rune strike, lacerate stacks, holy power stacks.

    Back in classic, people knew to wait to start DPS until the tank had a N stacks of sunder armor, so although there was sometimes a threat race after DPS opened up, the first few seconds of the fight there was no real race for threat. In wrath, it got somewhat ridiculous, with hunters sometimes misdirect-pulling mobs before a tank was even ready. If they want things to be more like classic, DPS are going to have to relearn a lot of how to play. I don't think they intentionally designed things so that DPS have to learn to wait again though.

    In the long term, maintaining high threat and having DPS close to that threat ceiling was a good game mechanic. It kept things interesting both for high DPS players who had to try to ride the tank's threat without going over, and for tanks to squeeze out as much threat as possible while staying alive. OTOH, the fact that some classes have permanent threat wipes and others don't makes this really unfair. If they'd removed permanent threat wipes, then I could see a design where equally geared DPS tend to ride a tank's threat, but not if hunters can FD every 30s, but a druid's threat is permanent.

    My main concern with vengeance is that it is such an awkward mechanic and seems to reward bad decisions. Their stated reason for wanting vengeance is that as damage dealers pick up more gear, the damage they deal will keep going up, while as tanks pick up more gear, since their gear focuses more on mitigation and avoidance, they won't scale as well. The problem is, better gear means more avoidance. More avoidance means vengeance stacks up more slowly, and has a higher risk of falling off. If they wanted vengeance to make our threat scale up better as we got better gear, shouldn't it be based off the damage we avoid? Afterall, that's the stat that gets better as our gear improves.

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