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Thread: Vengeance Formula & Theory!

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    I've actually been wanting to do some research into the nature of chance and how people perceive it.

    In this case, specifically, at what % turning point do people stop look at it as a chance to not get hit, and start looking at it as a chance to *be* hit.

    Our community has built this huge and funny sheeple point about avoidance and how if you cannot depend on it 100% of the time, it is the devil and evil, and you will die from it.
    I think 1/2 of it is that what you can and can not depend upon litterally makes or breaks the encounter. A naked/untalented player has a 94.4% chance to NOT receive a critical blow on a boss on any given swing. That's a pretty high number. Outside of WoW, if I told you you had a 94.4% chance of something good hapening, you'd pretty much consider that a sure thing. It's that (relatively) small 5.6% chance that hoses us when it does indeed happen. That's why previously, we geared for a minimum amount of Defense (or now we make sure we spend a few talent points in 1 specific talent). We're removing an element we can not depend on, nor predict. (In early levels of TBC/WotLK gearing, we even did this at the cost of other stats)

    With 60% avoidance you have a 21.6% chance to avoid 3 swings in a row (to NOT get hit 3x in a row). Avoiding 3, 4 or any number of attacks in a row doens't make a huge difference in the outcome of a fight. But the inverse - a 6.4% chance of eating 3 swings in a row - might infact change the encounter beyond recovery (you wipe).

    And the other 1/2 of it is just semantics I think - which is both a blessing and a curse. That's why we correct people that say "Avoidance" but mean "Mitigation". When delving deeper into WoW theory, it's important to note the differenes in terminology and how they effect different parts of the game. I do think we use "bad" and "good" much too often, and at the wrong times though. Avoidance is not "bad", it's just not as "good" as other stats in many situations.
    Last edited by Andenthal; 10-28-2010 at 11:24 AM. Reason: math fail
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  2. #22
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    I'm pretty sure you're misusing statistics there. A 60% chance to not get hit will not produce a *larger* chance to avoid 3 hits in a row. =)


    Here's the double-edged trick on avoidance:
    On the one hand it is true that it is not always there when you need it, and arguably, that does make or break attempts. But there is also no other stat that *actually* makes or breaks those crucial moments. Consider:

    You are down to 5k health, oh noes! The boss is hitting you for 20k damage. The next hit will kill you. No measure of armor, popped CD, or other ability will save you (60% dmg rdx from heavy protective CD will still leave you taking 8k dmg). That said, every 1% of avoidance is a 1% chance to not die on that swing. It may not, but it is also the only thing that *could* save you at that moment.

    That ignores the issue of how all of the elements combine to get you to that point, but this is also the situation that most people point at, without really considering it, when they deem avoidance a risk.

    The source of a lot of the avoidance stigma for survival were born in the age of Crushing Blows. Crushing Blows and Crits are important, why? Because it is damage in a surprising scale. Not taking a hit for a swing here in there, or multiple swings in a row is not bad for you or your healers. Not taking a swing and then taking a swing that is 1.5 or 2 times the normal size is surprising and hazardous depending on the scale of your health next to the scale of the damage taken (where only the health and armor we've stacked, EH will be affected by our choices in gearing). Without the surprising *scale* of damage, avoiding attacks does not represent a truly dangerous surprise factor, and avoidance does not result in you taking more damage. It *may* result in you taking a larger portion of your health in damage, but the trade off from swapping all your gems from pure stam to pure avoidance will still only represent less than a 20% change in your total health, at its most extreme in top tier gear.

    Like you said, the issue becomes not that avoidance is somehow bad for you, it is simply the nature of the value it gives. The "it might not be there when you need it" is a valid concern, but it is a lop-sided consideration. It could also be the only thing that saves you in those worst case scenarios.

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  3. #23
    The source of a lot of the avoidance stigma for survival were born in the age of Crushing Blows.
    It also stems a lot from the "Full health, almost dead, full health, almost dead" style of boss damage in Wrath.

    In Cataclysm, if the damage model changes and overall damage taken becomes more important than damage taken over periods of 2-3 hits, then avoidance will be far more important.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    I'm pretty sure you're misusing statistics there. A 60% chance to not get hit will not produce a *larger* chance to avoid 3 hits in a row. =)
    Apparently, I just don't know how to use a calculator. Fixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Like you said, the issue becomes not that avoidance is somehow bad for you, <snip>. It could also be the only thing that saves you in those worst case scenarios.
    I hope I'm not taking this second quote out of context.
    This is also what I was refering to above regarding semantics. You can't factor avoidance in a "worst case".

    I would say that if you had 5k HP and avoided the next attack, you were lucky. But I would not say that you were unlucky if you had 5k HP and you ate the next hit, killing you.
    Last edited by Andenthal; 10-28-2010 at 11:35 AM.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andenthal View Post
    I think 1/2 of it is that what you can and can not depend upon litterally makes or breaks the encounter. A naked/untalented player has a 94.4% chance to NOT receive a critical blow on a boss on any given swing. That's a pretty high number. Outside of WoW, if I told you you had a 94.4% chance of something good hapening, you'd pretty much consider that a sure thing. It's that (relatively) small 5.6% chance that hoses us when it does indeed happen.

    With 60% avoidance you have a 21.6% chance to avoid 3 swings in a row (to NOT get hit 3x in a row). Avoiding 3, 4 or any number of attacks in a row doens't make a huge difference in the outcome of a fight. But the inverse - a 6.4% chance of eating 3 swings in a row - might infact change the encounter beyond recovery (you wipe).
    i think you've glossed over and possibly omitted some very important concepts of statistics. having a 5.6% chance to have something happen every 2 seconds results in a very LARGE chance of having said event happen during a 5 min fight. in fact, you can just about count on it happening. it's only a small chance to happen if the event (swing) occurs only once.

    take a 300 second fight against a boss that swings every 2 seconds; that gives you 148 separate sequences of 3 swings. when evaluating stats the way you're doing, you need to look at the chance of the bad event (3 consecutive swings landing) happening over the entire fight. the chance of it happening in any one particular sequence is only part of the equation.

    the reason that avoidance was largely dismissed in WotLK was because there was no way to get that chance low enough over an entire encounter to keep a tank from dying to spike damage.

    i'm not sure any of this matters much to the OP of affecting vengeance, but:
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri
    Our community has built this huge and funny sheeple point about avoidance and how if you cannot depend on it 100% of the time, it is the devil and evil, and you will die from it.
    this certainly rings true, and i'd be interested more analysis of boss fights in cata and how stats are valued.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andenthal View Post
    This is also what I was refering to above regarding semantics. You can't factor avoidance in a "worst case".

    I would say that if you had 5k HP and avoided the next attack, you were lucky. But I would not say that you were unlucky if you had 5k HP and you ate the next hit, killing you.
    See, that's the problem. People have regularly referenced the value of avoidance saying, "worst case scenario, avoidance doesn't happen when you need it." Which is basically saying, "if you take avoidance out of the equation it gives you no value." You see what I mean with the funky logic? =)

    My point is only that in that make-or-break moment, Avoidance is the only thing that *could* save you, even if it is only a chance.


    We've kind of de-railed this thread, perhaps if anyone still wants to continue this side discussion they can make a new thread. =)
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by marklar View Post
    the reason that avoidance was largely dismissed in WotLK was because there was no way to get that chance low enough over an entire encounter to keep a tank from dying to spike damage.
    This is a common misconception.

    The reason why avoidance is a secondary stat has nothing to do with getting the ability to get the values high enough - it has to do with the amount of damage that the bosses do. Take the oft-used "5-hit-string" idea. For a lot of Wrath, this was a pipe dream, since the harder hitting bosses didn't need five hits to kill you, they often only needed three or two in some scenarios. At those levels of damage, it is very often the case that the difference between going avoidance heavy and going stamina heavy is the difference between being able to take two or three blows.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    See, that's the problem. People have regularly referenced the value of avoidance saying, "worst case scenario, avoidance doesn't happen when you need it." Which is basically saying, "if you take avoidance out of the equation it gives you no value." You see what I mean with the funky logic? =)
    I do see what you mean. Touche salesman. Touche
    Last edited by Andenthal; 10-30-2010 at 11:54 AM.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    Mastery breakpoint:
    WARNING: ONLY FOR PALADINS & WARRIORS!!! (DK mastery is harder to calculate and Druids use different Dodge Rating DR)
    Every point in mastery is worth X damage reduction
    A point in Dodge/Parry is worth up to Y damage reduction based on how much rating you have already.

    Terms:
    AR = Avoidance Rating (Dodge or Parry, but didn't wonna use DR)
    MR = Mastery Rating
    AB = Average Block. This is base 30%, add critical block to it. (e.g. 10% crit block is 33%)
    MC = the conversion rate for 1 Mastery (This would be 2 for Paladins)

    At level 85, the ratings are as followed:
    179,28 MR for 1 Mastery
    176,719 AR for 1% avoidance (pre-DR)

    The actual avoidance you get after DR is (0,0152366 + 0,956/x)^(-1) with x being pre-DR avoidance
    Or 'easier' = (0,0152366 + 0,956*176,719/AR)^(-1) = AR / (0,0152366*AR + 0,956*175,719)

    Breakpoint is then MR / 179,28 * MC * AB = AR / (0,0152366*AR + 0,956*175,719)
    We're comparing the gains of 1 MR vs 1 AR so divide each side ...
    MC * AB / 179,28 = 1 / (0,0152366*AR + 0,956*175,719)
    Bringing over the fractions:
    MC * AB * (0,0152366*AR + 0,956*175,719) = 179,28
    Now we extract the AR left in there to find the break-even point
    0,0152366*AR + 0,956*175,719 = 179,28 / (MC * AB)
    0,0152366*AR = 179,28 / (MC * AB) - 0,956*175,719
    AR = [179,28 / (MC * AB) - 0,956*175,719] /0,0152366
    For a Paladin this would be MC = 2 and AB = 30%
    AR = [179,28 / (MC * AB) - 0,956*175,719] /0,0152366
    AR = 8585,4
    In other words, you'ld need 8586 rating (BOTH Dodge and Parry!) to make Mastery reduce more overall damage as a Paladin!
    For a Warrior the equation is slightly more difficult, as AB = 30% * (1 + critical_block_chance), but the result will very likely be the same, an insanely high number to get there.
    How u get into account that 1 MR brings a Paladin 3% block what means that 1 Mastery should reduce your DMG Taken like 0,9% vs 1% Dodge pre DR?

    I don't know but if i made for example the DR of 1% Dodge pre DR from 20,53 Dodge to 21,53 i get only 0,67% of dodge out of that 1% Dodge pre DR and that feels like bad vs 1 Mastery that gives me 3% Block for the Paladin.

    45,856 or 179,28 MR = 3 times - 30% dmg
    vs
    45,25 or 176,719 DR = 0,67 times - 100% dmg

    for me in that case that u aren't already at 102,6% avoid/blockcapped it converts to:

    - 0,9% dmg vs -0,67% dmg

    and therefore the winner is Mastery.

    So something with your numbers isn't accurate at all or did i understand them wrong?

    Let's look on the fact that more Mastery points bring more Critical block and that 1 Mastery provides 1,25% of Blocking on live and 1,5% in cataclysm.

    So every new point of mastery don't only brings 1,5% of 30% Absorb but also 1,5% to Absorb 60%.

    1 Mastery = 1,25 times a block that absorbs 30% dmg and to 11,25% chance to absorb 60% dmg + 1,25% Chance to get a critical block out of the 30% + 1,25% chance of block that blocks 60% dmg
    1 Mastery = 1,25 * 0,3 * (1 + 11,25%) + 0,3 * (30 + 1,25) * 0,0125


    If i don't have made a mess or are completly wrong, than you should get about 0,534% dmg reduce. Without using Shieldblock that would bring ur blockrate on about 50%.

    Makeing some guess i would say that on 20,53% dodge pre DR should also be the point for warrior where Masteryrating gets better than Dodgerating.

    But saying all this to came back to my point and to my asumption that your calculation is wrong:

    On 20,53% dodge pre DR Masteryrating is better for Paladin than Dodgerating.
    We are talking about 3630 Dodgerating and this is not even near 8k rating that for me sounds horrible high.

    Ps.: i hope you can understand what i write, my english writeing isn't realy good.
    PPs; Martie the problem is the time between this hits in first place and in second that you need so many avoid to reduce the chance to become two full hits at the same chance how you get 3 full hits, that it was allway better to stack with the 3 hit version.
    Last edited by wit3; 10-29-2010 at 08:17 PM.

  10. #30
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    Yeah, I meant that 1 mastery relates to X amount of block, so 179,28 MR relates to that, compared to Y Dodge.

    Apparently, I made a math error (most likely a decimal wrong somewhere), because I just redid the calculations for the new numbers (2.25% block per mastery & 40% damage reduction), and I got a more realistic number. Re-checking, (MC * AB) for Paladins now remains the same, although your overall chance to block is lower.
    The correct break-even point for Paladins is actually 1986 Avoidance Ratings. (At level 85 btw)
    This means that if you have more Dodge & Parry rating than that, Mastery becomes a better stat.

    If I do the same for Warriors, using 1,5% block & crit block per Mastery and 30% base reduction:
    MC = 1,5 and AB = 30% * (1 + 1,5% * (8 + MR / 179,28))
    AR = [179,28 / (MC * AB) - 0,956*176,719] /0,0152366
    AR = [179,28 / (1,5 * 30% * (1 + 1,5% * (8 + MR / 179,28))) - 0,956*176,719] /0,0152366
    AR = [179,28 / (45% * (1,12 + 0,015 / 179,28 * MR))) - 0,956*176,719] /0,0152366
    AR = [179,28 / ((0,504 + 0,675 / 17928 * MR) *0,0152366) - 0,956*176,719/0,0152366
    AR = [179,28 / ((0,504 + 0,675 / 17928 * MR) *0,0152366) - 11087,996
    Now this is the fun part:
    AR = 312515705,6036 / (MR + 13386,24) - 11087,996
    (Yes, that is 312 million!)
    At 0 MR, this is 12258
    At 1000 MR, this is 10636
    And so on...

    If you turn this thing around, to get to the point where Paladins are, (1986 AR as break-even point), you'ld need 10518 Mastery Rating, .... which is the 100% crit block hardcap. (Makes sense, 2,25% * 40% = 1,5% * 60%)
    Too bad the block chance cap is already at 9562 Mastery Rating, at which point Mastery is (of course) not worth it anymore.

    To make Mastery worth it at some point in a realistic environment, any of the following solution would work:
    * Make critical blocks a separate roll on the table (rather than two-roll)
    * Increase block chance per Mastery to 2,5-2,75%
    * Increase Critical Block Chance to atleast 4-5% per Mastery (although this will gimp Mastery value once you hit 20/25 Mastery)

    Edit: Note that this is all without Shield Block taken into account. Shield Block actually boosts the value of Mastery Rating through the gain in critical blocks.
    Unfortunately the math to add that is even bigger than this one, so I'll simply stick it into the spreadsheet I'm working on and tell you the result when I'm done.
    Last edited by Airowird; 11-01-2010 at 03:55 PM.
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  11. #31
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    Yeah with the newest warrior changes, warriors aren't going to be able to stack mastery high enough to make crit block even noticeable. Once you reach 102.6% combined, the value of mastery drops drastically. If you gear choice with full mastery on your gear you can't reforge more, so your looking at roughly 200 mastery per a slot times 15-17 slots depending on how crazy you want to go with it. So around 3000 mastery and 1500 dodge/parry each (minus whatever you want or need for hit / exp) in full epics most likely.

    The worst part is that as your gear gets better, mastery gets worse and worse as a stat. It's basically going to be used to only reach unhittable and as your gear gets better your chance to crit block goes down. If they ever did change to a one roll system it would be awesome because then we could at least have the option of pushing non crit blocks off the table.

  12. #32
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    Actually, you'ld only want 75% unhittability for Shield Block, but other than that you're right on the spot.
    Past that number Mastery Rating is so crap, you'ld need to be hitting extreme DR numbers on avoidance for it to be worth it at which point you're immortal anyway (yeah, crit block is THAT crap!)
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  13. #33
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    so i today got some time to but some numbers into account, so a paladin that has the Block Meta should always ever make mastery instead of dodge or parry.

    And i don't know why u calculate only the block chance gain and never ever the increase of crjtjcal block chance. That is a point that u can't forget.

    As wired as i was today at work i throw away the paper where i calculatet all.

    So i have to redo it.

    But:

    Without "hold the line" mastery was better than dodge @ 20% somwhat near that.

    Block Absorb should be:

    Block Absorb = Dmg Absorb Parameter * (1 + Base Crit Block / 100 + Mastery / 100) * Mastery + Dmg Absorb Parameter * Mastery / 100 * ((Base Block + Mastery Block) * 20 sec + Blockchance when Block is active * 10 sec) / 30 sec

    Dmg Absorb Parameter is 30 Without Block Meta

    BA = 0,3 * (1 + 10 / 100 + 1,5 / 100) * 1,5 + 0,3 * 1,5 / 100 * ((30 + 1,5) * 20 + 100 * 10) / 30

    BA = 0,50175 + 0,2445 = 0,74625%

    So sorry if i don't have the full math, but literaly i have thrown the math in the garbage , and now i am to tired to remake all this.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    Yeah, I meant that 1 mastery relates to X amount of block, so 179,28 MR relates to that, compared to Y Dodge.

    Apparently, I made a math error (most likely a decimal wrong somewhere), because I just redid the calculations for the new numbers (2.25% block per mastery & 40% damage reduction), and I got a more realistic number. Re-checking, (MC * AB) for Paladins now remains the same, although your overall chance to block is lower.
    The correct break-even point for Paladins is actually 2049 Avoidance Ratings. (At level 85 btw)
    This means that if you have more Dodge & Parry rating than that, Mastery becomes a better stat.

    If I do the same for Warriors, using 1,5% block & crit block per Mastery and 30% base reduction:
    MC = 1,5 and AB = 30% * (1 + 1,5% * (8 + MR / 179,28))
    AR = [179,28 / (MC * AB) - 0,956*175,719] /0,0152366
    AR = [179,28 / (1,5 * 30% * (1 + 1,5% * (8 + MR / 179,28))) - 0,956*175,719] /0,0152366
    AR = [179,28 / (45% * (1,12 + 0,015 / 179,28 * MR))) - 0,956*175,719] /0,0152366
    AR = [179,28 / ((0,504 + 0,675 / 17928 * MR) *0,0152366) - 0,956*175,719/0,0152366
    AR = [179,28 / ((0,504 + 0,675 / 17928 * MR) *0,0152366) - 11025,2526154129
    Now this is the fun part:
    AR = 312515705,6036 / (MR + 13386,24) - 11025,2526154129
    (Yes, that is 312 million!)
    At 0 MR, this is 12321
    At 1000 MR, this is 10698
    And so on...

    If you turn this thing around, to get to the point where Paladins are, (2049 AR as break-even point), you'ld need 10518 Mastery Rating, .... which is exactly the 100% crit block hardcap.
    Too bad the block chance cap is already at 9562 Mastery Rating, at which point Mastery is (of course) not worth it anymore.

    To make Mastery worth it at some point in a realistic environment, any of the following solution would work:
    * Make critical blocks a separate roll on the table (rather than two-roll)
    * Increase block chance per Mastery to 2,5-2,75%
    * Increase Critical Block Chance to atleast 4-5% per Mastery (although this will gimp Mastery value once you hit 20/25 Mastery)

    Edit: Note that this is all without Shield Block taken into account. Shield Block actually boosts the value of Mastery Rating through the gain in critical blocks.
    Unfortunately the math to add that is even bigger than this one, so I'll simply stick it into the spreadsheet I'm working on and tell you the result when I'm done.
    Since it is a 30% reduction, shouldn't you be multiplying by 0.7 rather than 0.3. I'll be honest with the fact that I haven't gone fully through your math, but you generally don't end up multiplying by the reduction but by (1-reduction). Just something for you to check.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    Since it is a 30% reduction, shouldn't you be multiplying by 0.7 rather than 0.3. I'll be honest with the fact that I haven't gone fully through your math, but you generally don't end up multiplying by the reduction but by (1-reduction). Just something for you to check.
    I see how much damage is removed, so 30% vs 100% (=1)

    @wit3: You do know how I just wrote at the end that I didn't take SB into account, right?
    The easiest to do really would be to calculate the SB numbers and then just use the weighted average between SB up and normal and use that as total. So that on any fight where you wish to use SB as an active CD (rather than just macro'ing it to everything), you can just adjust the numbers.

    Edit:
    The gain of SB (in itself) is 25% block chance * 30% * (1 + crit_block_chance)
    = 25% * 30% * (1 + 1,5% * MR / 179,28)
    = 7,5% + 11,25% / 179,28 * MR
    Your total block reduction during SB is then worth:
    7,5% + 44,25/17928 * MR + 45/17928 * MRČ
    If again, we derive this into gain per MR, we get
    44,25/17928 + 2*45/17928 * MR = 1 / (0,0152366*AR + 0,956*176,719)
    Doing our usual mojo:
    44,25 + 90 * MR = 17928 / (0,0152366*AR + 0,956*176,719)
    44,25*(0,0152366*AR + 0,956*176,719) + 90*(0,0152366*AR + 0,956*176,719)*MR = 17928
    44,25*0,0152366*AR + 90*0,0152366*AR*MR + 90*0,956*176,719*MR = 17928 - 7475,743857
    (2,00171955 + 1,371294*MR)*AR = 10452,256143 - 15204,90276*MR
    AR = (10452,256143 - 15204,90276*MR) / (2,00171955 + 1,371294*MR)
    It is already clear that the first point in Mastery will push this break-even point into negatives, so SB makes it always worth it.

    If you add those 2 together using SB on the cooldown (2/3 normal and 1/3 SB), you get:
    AR = 2/3 * [312515705,6036 / (MR + 13386,24) - 11087,996] + 1/3 * [(10452,256143 - 15204,90276*MR) / (2,00171955 + 1,371294*MR)]
    I'll save you the math, because I end with giganticly large numbers at some point, but the conclusion is:
    AR = [(338136583 + 158870818 * MR - 3695,998757 * MRČ) / (19540,30158 + 133387,69973 * MR + MRČ)] - 7391,997333
    Ofcourse, you aren't going to math that out every time, so here is the conclusion:
    On 0 Mastery Rating, this is 9913 AR
    To get where the Paladin is(1986 AR), you'ld need exactly -1,2185 Mastery Rating.

    Conclusions:
    1) When you are below 75% Avoidance + Block and keep Shield Block on cooldown, Mastery wins.
    2) When you go too high in avoidance+block, or do not use Shield Block enough, Mastery loses out
    3) The math to calculate when Mastery beats avoidance is a giant pain, and can not be expected to be done by your average player.
    4) The treshhold when Mastery starts losing out on avoidance because you either go above 75% avoidance+block OR you do not use Shield Block enough, is beyond the scope of the mathematics skills of your average WoW player. The combination of both (= real environment) requires a higher education in math to grasp, let alone find a way to put this into human language so others can understand you.
    Last edited by Airowird; 11-01-2010 at 03:48 PM. Reason: More Magic!! I mean math!

  16. #36
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    Non-math version of above:
    The damage reduction gain from Mastery without SB up is very close to avoidance (90-95%), but takes a fair amount of avoidance rating to actually pass it.
    The damage reduction with SB up is fairly higher (20-25% higher), at which point it is almost impossible for Mastery to lose vs avoidance as long as you do not push SB too much into critical blocks.
    This duality is not only very math-dependant, it is also extremely unclear when this happens for a certain situation. More importantly, the current mechanics actually push you towards SB-unhittable, after which gear choices become a very grey area for people without a thorough understanding of mathematics.
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  17. #37
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    Oct 2010
    Posts
    5
    We could state for the avergrage Player something very simple and understandeble for them:

    As a Paladin Mastery till 92,6% Total Avoidance > Dodge/Parry

    As a Warrior Mastery till 77,6% Total Avoidence > Dodge/Parry


    But, and there is the pain in all that, if blizzard now makes SB adding critical Block if it's over 102,6% Totalavoid than mastery is at some point still more worth than Dodge or Parry. But i think the standart Player don't has to know that.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    2,361
    Where do you get 92,6% & 77,6% from?
    Are you adding the level? because it's 2,4% (0,6% * 4 different avoidances)
    also, Paladins get increased block value, not chance, so they do want to hit 102,4%

    And 25% critical block can NEVER beat 25% regular block chance. So there is a drop off point at a certain amount of Mastery where it is simply not worth getting more Mastery over avoidance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
    Warlords of Draenor One Minute Field Guides

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,754
    wit3, I think that's a bit more confusing - mastery is better untill you have 97% avoidance for paladins, or untill 97% of your avoidance is bigger then your dodge or parry (dodge and parry maybe?)

    WT, Paladins get increased block value?
    Do you have a source on that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    534
    Paladin change is next to the shieldblock one. http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/27397...-update-10-29/

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