# Thread: Vengeance Formula & Theory!

1. Son of Megatron
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Jun 2009
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They're making Holy Shield increase block value, so that it's worth it past unhittable cap.
Then they realised that it would make Mastery more powerful, so they nerfed the conversion rate to 2,25% (2,25%*40%=3%*30%)
So in other words, in the upcoming beta patch, you will need to keep up Holy Shield to have the same gain from Mastery, while at the same time you lose 15% block chance.
Ain't that great??

2. New Registrant
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Oct 2010
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naturaly 102,4 not 102,6 sry for that confusion.

Till the point wehre hitting Shieldblock is not converted in Critical Block, Mastery should be good.

3. Established Registrant
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Apr 2008
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311
I'm trying to go over your warrior numbers but not quite through them yet... However looking over your paladin numbers it looks like your using 175.719 as the conversion for dodge / parry pre DR? EJ has it listed as 176.71899, curious who has it listed is 175.719.

Using 176.71899 I get the pally crossover being 1986 rating

EDIT:

I played around with your preliminary warrior calculations

The easiest way to compute it in a spreadsheet was (179.28*179.28*65.63144) / (1.5 * 0.3) = 312,515,705.19859
there was your 312 million. I'm assuming we have some rounding differences, but I used the base value of c rather than 1/c from EJ (hence the 65.63144).
Dividing that by MR + 13386.24 and subtracting all of that by 11807.996 (again our numbers differ because I was using 176.71899 rather than 175.719)... I came up with a break even point of roughly 5478.
Last edited by Takethecake; 11-01-2010 at 09:37 AM.

4. Son of Megatron
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Bugger, I might have made a typo then >_>

I'll go recheck and edit the math, thanks for pointing that out.

Edit: Can I ask where you got 5478 from? I can't seem to figure out how you got it.
Last edited by Airowird; 11-01-2010 at 05:38 PM.

5. Established Registrant
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Spreadsheet is at work, but that was the point where the value for AR equalized with the value of MR when I used those numbers... I'll double check it tomorrow when I get to work though.

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Originally Posted by Martie
This is a common misconception.

The reason why avoidance is a secondary stat has nothing to do with getting the ability to get the values high enough - it has to do with the amount of damage that the bosses do. Take the oft-used "5-hit-string" idea. For a lot of Wrath, this was a pipe dream, since the harder hitting bosses didn't need five hits to kill you, they often only needed three or two in some scenarios. At those levels of damage, it is very often the case that the difference between going avoidance heavy and going stamina heavy is the difference between being able to take two or three blows.
i'm curious why you call this a misconception?

at high enough avoidance levels, the chance of the 5-hit string (or 3-hit string as you point out), becomes very low. at some point, it becomes low enough that you can almost count on it not happening. in other words, the spike itself never comes. for example, if i have a 1% chance of such a 3-hit string happening (i'm talking the chance of it happening once over an entire fight), i'm ok with that. the 1 pull out of 100 that it does happen... well, that's a wipe, but it'll be a rare one. the other 99 times the fight will be much easier.

in wrath, such numbers were impossible to obtain, which is the reason why i always chose armor as my top stat.

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The reason that (top end, bleeding edge) tanks did not gear for Avoidance had nothing to do with how many swings you ate, or avoided in a given time frame. It was because attacks that acutally threaten to kill you - I.E. boss specials - were unavoidable (Gormok's Impale, Icehowl's Ferocious Butt, Soul Reaper, Frostbolt, etc). It's not that it was "bad", it was just not useful on the abilities that hit the hardest.

Originally Posted by marklar
in wrath, such numbers were impossible to obtain, which is the reason why i always chose armor as my top stat.
Similar here. Armor was good, not because Avoidance was "RNG" or "bad", but because it was the only thing that softened how hard those tank-killer abilities hit for.

Edit: Obviously magicall attacks are not mitigated by armor either, but bonus armor pieces do not sacrifice Stamina for the bonus armor - they sacrifice avoidance (or threat) which is not needed for those types of attacks anyway.

8. New Registrant
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May 2010
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What if Vengeance had the following formula?

Vengeance: Each time you take damage, you gain 30/40% of the damage taken as attack power, up to a maximum of 5/6% of your health.

- it will reach its maximum very quickly helping with the first seconds of every pull
- it will require the warrior to hold threat out of skill during the fight instead of because is hitting huge Shield Slams...

in other words, helping us on the pull and making us work harder during the fight

i'm just thinking out loud..

9. If you took the current ICC state of things, 40% of a hit would be ~10-15% of your health.

That means one hit would pin you to the cap for Vengeance and the system would be pointless (the system being aimed at ramping up over longer fights, for the tank, for long term threat).

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The best solution I've heard of was on the official Tanking forums (forgive me, I forget who said it).

Something like --
"Vengeance: Grants you Attack Power equal to 5% of your health. In addition, each time you take damage, you gain 5% of the damage taken as attack power, up to a maximum of 5% of your health."

You basically get 1/2 of the benefit of Vengeance up front, with the other 1/2 having the potential to stack up as the fight goes on. You'd still have the decay built-in (same as it is now), but you'd only lose up to 1/2 of your Vengeance (if if completely wore off). In this way your AP is much more stable in the median between zero Vengeance and max Vengeance.

A tank with:
3500 AP
50,000 HP

.. in the current model:
Attack power can range from 3500 - 8500.

Max Vengeance has 142% more AP than zero Vengeance, meaning that DPS/threat can swing at least that much.

...in the propsed model:
Attack power can range from 6000 - 8500.

Much smaller difference between zero Vengeance and max Vengeance (max Vengeance is a ~41% increase in AP over zero Vengeance). It still allows scaling with increased Stamina/HP, but isn't an "all or nothing" sort of deal. Even with zero Vengeance your max DPS/threat potential is ~70% of what it would be with max Vengeance, versus the ~40% zero Vengeance potential you have with the current model.

11. ICC is a really bad testing ground for vengeance, by the way, since we doubledip into the buff. (The 30% more health means 30% more attack power from vengeance. The attack power translates into more damage done, and that damage done gets increased by 30% again.)