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Thread: Vengeance Formula & Theory!

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    Vengeance Formula & Theory!

    Vengeance: Each time you take damage, you gain 5% of the damage taken as attack power, up to a maximum of 10% of your health.

    Because this is an on damage ability it really lends itself to what Blizzard wanted to get away from; EH gearing. We have turned into true block tanks. Avoidance used to be a double lit candle, and still is, however it is worse now than ever.

    Because on avoids you don't take damage, you won't stack vengeance, and thus you won't be doing the TPS you need to keep up with the current DPS out of the gate. This means that as you get more gear, you will do less threat because of the innate avoidance on the gear. To negate this, you want to stay at the Diminishing Return threshhold of dodge, which is around 931 rating. Ideally this means that you get the most out of your avoidance without overstacking it. Parry as a warrior tank is still okay because of Hold the Line and how it affects critical block, HOWEVER, it is still less threat than mastery.

    Why mastery gives innate threat:

    It increases your block, when you block, you absorb damage, but still take some. This means that you stack vengeance; vengeance equals threat. Vengeance also DECAYS, so the higher you have your mastery and the lower your avoidance (to a point), the faster you regain it. On fights with lulls this is important.

    This is why lower geared tanks have far less threat problems.

    If you need to stack avoidance stack parry to the DR first! This is a complete mindset change from before.

    Blizzard has basically lowered armor, but given us far higher block, that innately absorbs 30% of the damage taken, but can crit and absorb double.

    So far this seems to not stack fully with armor, but rather work in a layered system, ie not additive but multi tiered absorption:

    Attack of 5000 damage incoming
    You block, reduces damage to 3500.
    Armor absorbs 66% (my armor value), reduced to 1190.

    You take 1190.

    It doesn't work like this:


    5000 damage inc: Absorb 30% by block + 66% by armor = 200 damage.

    This is like saying that because you drank ten 5% beers, you drank the equivalent of a drink with 50% alcohol. Multi layered people.

    This is important to note.

    So, armor is extremely important, so is mastery to get block. Avoidance plays its backseat surviability role still.

    Vigilance:

    TPS on LK is far better out of the gate because Vigilance on the other tank allows me to stack vengeance 20% faster. Fights like Halion where a 2nd tank isn't getting hit at the start means lower TPS generation.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raij View Post
    the Diminishing Return threshhold of dodge, which is around 931 rating.
    I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the "threshhold" of Dodge. I think I understand what you are meaning, but the way it's worded makes it sound like you can't go any higher.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raij View Post
    Why mastery gives innate threat:

    It increases your block, when you block, you absorb damage, but still take some. This means that you stack vengeance; vengeance equals threat. Vengeance also DECAYS, so the higher you have your mastery and the lower your avoidance (to a point), the faster you regain it. On fights with lulls this is important.

    This is why lower geared tanks have far less threat problems.
    I would say that Rage starvation is the primary reason that tanks with higher gear have threat issues (if at all.) and not so much from lack of AP. This is why (generally speaking) this is only an issue with Rage tanks, as DKs and Paladins do not have this issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raij View Post
    So far this seems to not stack fully with armor, but rather work in a layered system, ie not additive but multi tiered absorption:

    Attack of 5000 damage incoming
    You block, reduces damage to 3500.
    Armor absorbs 66% (my armor value), reduced to 1190.
    You're correct about the multiplicative reductions, but the order is incorrect. Armor should always be factored first. You block whatever armor did not mitigate (not the other way around). The numbers come out the same in this example, though.

    5000 damage
    66% armor redux makes that 1700
    Then a block would would reduce it to 1190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andenthal View Post
    5000 damage
    66% armor redux makes that 1700
    Then a block would would reduce it to 1190
    Then Def Stance would reduce it to 1071.

    @Raij: Your logic on the EH gearing is flawed though.
    EH over avoidance increases both the damage you take as well as the max Vengeance can stack to.
    In fact, if Vengeance is maxed out, Stamina will give you almost as much AP as Strength would (2 AP vs the 2.1 from Str)
    While I'm not sure what you mean with the DR treshold on Dodge, I can tell you that Mastery rating is mostly great because it spreads damage taken out more, which provides smoother Vengeance (Avoidance streaks could drop it while full hits could be wasted over the cap)

    Because Mastery rating is relative to incoming damage now and is the only 'avoidance'-like stat without DR, there WILL be a threshold for Dodge & Parry at some point, which is where the damage reduction overall is better from Mastery.
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  4. #4
    I'm no math major, so if you have the values I'd love to see em War!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andenthal View Post


    You're correct about the multiplicative reductions, but the order is incorrect. Armor should always be factored first. You block whatever armor did not mitigate (not the other way around). The numbers come out the same in this example, though.

    5000 damage
    66% armor redux makes that 1700
    Then a block would would reduce it to 1190
    It's not just the same in that example, it is the same no matter what. Whether you calculate block or armor first you will always end up with the exact same result. However armor is factored in first.

    War is correct though, EH will still result in more vengeance stacks than avoidance because in general it's mostly stamina you are gaining which makes the vengeance max even higher. At the moment any boss that does enough damage to risk a tank death stacks vengeance all the way up. Eh just makes that stack higher. Mastery is better than dodge/parry because it results in less spike damage and a steadier vengeance build, but in the end it makes little difference. Your mastery will still sit at an average number if not maxed out, and that should be based on the damage you take over time. Avoidance always ends up with the least damage over time, so yes less vengeance. We also know that while it's less damage EH results is smaller spikes, and block results in less often spikes.

    Bottom line is basically nothing has changed, gear the same way as before and get mastery over parry/dodge to reduce the occurence of spike damage. It will still result in the best vengeance, the highest chance for it to stack steadily, and most importantly best survivability.
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    if everything is calculated in terms of multiplicative factors, than the order doesn't matter, prior it used to matter that armor went first then block because block was a static number versus a multiplier. For all intents and purposes nowadays, order doesn't matter.

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    Another reason to stack stam, as now, and less armor (which sucks), is because Stam increases the amount of actual AP you can stack to. Now it is clear that my Skele Key > my Twilight Scale just on a threat level. The scale is nice....for armor....sometimes. Also, Reforged Heroic Corpse Tongue Coin gives you the most mastery you can get from almost any piece of gear.

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    Would you mind clarifying what you mean when you use the term "dodge threshold"? Threshold implies a discontinuous function, of which the avoidance you gain per point of rating is patently not an example.
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  10. #10

    What I meant by that was, you want to stack your dodge/parry to it's limit in relation to diminishing return. You don't want to stack avoidance past a point where the diminishign return will make it so that you need an insane amount of avoidance to get any sort of gain out of it. Threshold means crossing this point in this case.

    That number hasn't really been determined yet.


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    You may want to consider using a term other than "threshhold" or "limit". A threshhold is usually a hard and fast marker where something completely changes. Defenese rating (when it was in the game) worked that way. You needed a certain amount of Defense rating to cross over the "threshhold" of becoming uncritable. After that point, the value of Defense changes dramatically. This is an absolute number and does not change under (nearly) any circumstance.
    (or resilience, blah, blah)

    Avoidance ratings don't really work that way. There's not really a hard and fast line where you get 1 more Avoidance Rating and it drastically changes.

    There might be a point where you get less bang for the buck with Avoidance ratings - where you would get more survivability reforging for Mastery. I do not think this will be an issue at 85 though, as early numbers point to use being Mastery capped well before we would need to worry about having too much avoidance.

    I also wonder where the 931 rating comes from.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raij View Post
    What I meant by that was, you want to stack your dodge/parry to it's limit in relation to diminishing return. You don't want to stack avoidance past a point where the diminishign return will make it so that you need an insane amount of avoidance to get any sort of gain out of it. Threshold means crossing this point in this case.

    That number hasn't really been determined yet.
    Actually that number does not exist.

    Diminishing returns is a smooth function, a carefully crafted curve that gets less steep as it moves towards the cap (65%). The curve is crafted such that you receive a roughly linear value for every constant increment of rating (so 20 rating at 600 is the same value as 20 rating at 1200).

    Note: 1% avoidance at 20% total is *not* the same as 1% at 50% total. This "diminishing" curve allows the rating to work out linearly because you're moving from 0% towards 100% avoidance, where 100% avoidance is 0 damage taken. So you need less % actual avoidance value to get the same reduction in damage taken the closer you get to 100%.

    So, there is no magical turning point at which avoidance changes in value, and you suddenly need to heap on loads more rating to get value out of the stat.
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    As for Vengeance, the concept is simple:

    1.) The size of your health will determine the ultimate cap on your Vengeance buff. This number will *not* vary much. The only thing that will change it generally is if someone gems for pure stamina, or if they gem for hybrid gems (uncommon decision at 80), or if they don't get stamina from a gem socket (virtually non-existent at 80). It can vary a little with your trinket choices, as you pointed out, to the tune of about 200 AP difference for using the Stam trinket instead of the Armor trinket.

    2.) The *rate* at which you stack up Vengeance will be determined by your stance (not changing), your armor (very mildly varying, mostly on trinkets, but again, the trinket will make maybe a 0.5% change in damage reduction value? which will trickle down to barely noticeable changes), avoidance (possibly gained from trade offs on gems, likely traded into Mastery by Warriors right now who luuuurrrrvv their block), and block. Block is a chance at a larger reduction, which will blunt the overall rate at which you stack Vengeance.


    To clarify:
    1.) Vengeance does not give a reliable value in the short-term, regardless of your health, avoidance, or other survival tools. How quickly it stacks at the start of a fight will be hit or miss, literally, regardless of what you do to your avoidance or block. It will *not* make or break your opening threat, and it would be silly to try to take more damage to get more AP early on. When your performance as a tank matters, it will require survival, not just threat.

    2.) Vengeance is designed for long-term threat buffing. If you are tanking without interruption, ideally, it is fairly consistent and moderately reliable, and does not notice the particulars of your survival values. This has been reported to be a little rocky depending on the particulars, specifically with people getting unfortunate gaps in incoming damage from kiting/avoidance strings/etc and having the full stack fall off, but this is a little more case-specific, and not something you can readily avoid by tampering with your stats.


    Believe me, I'm the first person to be dismayed that this threat buff pits survival stats against each other, but if you want to explore it I would recommend putting less emphasis on the (flawed) verbal reasoning, and stay true to your title with a "formula," perhaps some more numbers.
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    First of all, you're talking a lot about block, so I assume you're talking about vengeance and mastery as it relates to tanks who block. A lot of what you're talking about doesn't apply to DKs and druids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raij View Post
    This means that as you get more gear, you will do less threat because of the innate avoidance on the gear.
    I don't think that's true. Now that there's no longer defense on gear, there's more room for stats like strength. While it's true that as you get more gear, your avoidance stack takes longer to build up, all other things being equal, I doubt that in most scenarios you'll end up doing less threat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raij View Post
    If you need to stack avoidance stack parry to the DR first! This is a complete mindset change from before.
    This sentence doesn't really make sense. First of all there's "stack avoidance stack parry", then there's the concept of "to the DR"? Avoidance is on a continuous diminishing returns curve. There are no thresholds or inflection points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raij View Post
    Blizzard has basically lowered armor, but given us far higher block, that innately absorbs 30% of the damage taken, but can crit and absorb double.
    Only warrior tanks have critical block. If you're intending to talk only about warrior tanks, you should make that clear up front. Secondly, "absorb" really isn't the right word. Blocks used to absorb a certain amount of damage based on block value, but they now simply reduce damage, the same way defensive stance or armor do. I'm using "absorb" in the sense that the Blizzard combat log does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by immerc View Post
    Secondly, "absorb" really isn't the right word. Blocks used to absorb a certain amount of damage based on block value, but they now simply reduce damage, the same way defensive stance or armor do. I'm using "absorb" in the sense that the Blizzard combat log does.
    The way blocks are reported in the logs it seems to still be factored in as an absorb mechanic, only % based now instead of a flat number.

    @Satorri

    The magic number comparison most people are looking for is the point were warrior's mastery becomes more efficient point for point than avoidance. If your looking at avoidance from the receiving end such that it's a linear reward, couldn't you look at mastery the same way. Which would make the scaling of mastery for prot warriors similar to the scaling of armor pen pre 4.0?



    From the spreadsheets I've been messing around building in prep of cata it looks like the breaking point is in the 6000 rating range for raw incoming damage. Meaning point for point for incoming damage, mastery isn't better than avoidance until dodge and parry and mastery are in the 6000 range. Which is well beyond anything feasible in cata gear. Personally I want to see if I can get my mastery up to 5020 to guarantee a critical block for every block (with hold the line up), with 65% block chance and at the gear lvl required to get that much mastery I'm sure the other 35% would be covered between dodge/parry/miss so that all my incoming hits that connect are reduced by 63% from block (GO GO META!).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Takethecake View Post
    From the spreadsheets I've been messing around building in prep of cata it looks like the breaking point is in the 6000 rating range for raw incoming damage. Meaning point for point for incoming damage, mastery isn't better than avoidance until dodge and parry and mastery are in the 6000 range. Which is well beyond anything feasible in cata gear.
    Wait, so the break-even is with all the ratings around 6k? That is based on the grand average damage reduction? Like 1% avoid = 1% dmg rdx, 1% block = 0.3% dmg rdx (plus fudge factor for crit block?)? Or how were you doing that math?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takethecake View Post
    From the spreadsheets I've been messing around building in prep of cata it looks like the breaking point is in the 6000 rating range for raw incoming damage. Meaning point for point for incoming damage, mastery isn't better than avoidance until dodge and parry and mastery are in the 6000 range. Which is well beyond anything feasible in cata gear.
    Avoidance has always been the best way to reduce incoming damage, and it will likely continue to be in Cataclysm.

    One thing though, once you reach block cap, block changes from chance on mitigation, to gauranteed mitigation - I.E. EH. Once you block cap, you've effecitvely raised your EH by 30%.
    Quote Originally Posted by Takethecake View Post
    Which would make the scaling of mastery for prot warriors similar to the scaling of armor pen pre 4.0?
    This is how it's mostly looked at. The more you get, the better it is. It's not a linearly scaling stat.


    There's also some things that are hard to simulate, such as "healability." Ask your healers if they would rather you take 40k damage every other hit, or 20k damage every hit.

    It's not about taking less damage, it's about being able to take more.
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    Yeah I did increments of 20 rating, comparing incoming damage %. The ration of incoming damage reduction/avoidance per a point of rating equalizes at around 6000. It changes depending on if you factor in the meta gem.

    Their are tons of factors not taken into account on the sheet, the most glaring one being the shield block ability, but I just wanted to be able to see how they compared to each other when you factored in DR on avoidance. Using the same info for lvl 80 gave me an equalization at 2192 rating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andenthal View Post
    One thing though, once you reach block cap, block changes from chance on mitigation, to gauranteed mitigation - I.E. EH. Once you block cap, you've effecitvely raised your EH by 30%.
    I've actually been wanting to do some research into the nature of chance and how people perceive it.

    In this case, specifically, at what % turning point do people stop look at it as a chance to not get hit, and start looking at it as a chance to *be* hit.

    Our community has built this huge and funny sheeple point about avoidance and how if you cannot depend on it 100% of the time, it is the devil and evil, and you will die from it.

    The actual inflection point in value will be well below 100%, probably in the 60-70% range, I'd expect, but I'd wager there are people who've done far more work on this than I.
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    Mastery breakpoint:
    WARNING: ONLY FOR PALADINS & WARRIORS!!! (DK mastery is harder to calculate and Druids use different Dodge Rating DR)
    Every point in mastery is worth X damage reduction
    A point in Dodge/Parry is worth up to Y damage reduction based on how much rating you have already.

    Terms:
    AR = Avoidance Rating (Dodge or Parry, but didn't wonna use DR)
    MR = Mastery Rating
    AB = Average Block. This is base 30%, add critical block to it. (e.g. 10% crit block is 33%)
    MC = the conversion rate for 1 Mastery (This would be 2 for Paladins)

    At level 85, the ratings are as followed:
    179,28 MR for 1 Mastery
    176,719 AR for 1% avoidance (pre-DR)

    The actual avoidance you get after DR is (0,0152366 + 0,956/x)^(-1) with x being pre-DR avoidance
    Or 'easier' = (0,0152366 + 0,956*176,719/AR)^(-1) = AR / (0,0152366*AR + 0,956*175,719)

    Breakpoint is then MR / 179,28 * MC * AB = AR / (0,0152366*AR + 0,956*175,719)
    We're comparing the gains of 1 MR vs 1 AR so divide each side ...
    MC * AB / 179,28 = 1 / (0,0152366*AR + 0,956*175,719)
    Bringing over the fractions:
    MC * AB * (0,0152366*AR + 0,956*175,719) = 179,28
    Now we extract the AR left in there to find the break-even point
    0,0152366*AR + 0,956*175,719 = 179,28 / (MC * AB)
    0,0152366*AR = 179,28 / (MC * AB) - 0,956*175,719
    AR = [179,28 / (MC * AB) - 0,956*175,719] /0,0152366
    For a Paladin this would be MC = 2 and AB = 30%
    AR = [179,28 / (MC * AB) - 0,956*175,719] /0,0152366
    AR = 8585,4
    In other words, you'ld need 8586 rating (BOTH Dodge and Parry!) to make Mastery reduce more overall damage as a Paladin!
    For a Warrior the equation is slightly more difficult, as AB = 30% * (1 + critical_block_chance), but the result will very likely be the same, an insanely high number to get there.
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