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Thread: Pala Tanks have it easy with Single Target, AoE requires some thought (From DPS)

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    Pala Tanks have it easy with Single Target, AoE requires some thought (From DPS)

    First of all for all those Tankadins whining about changes to rotation etc, dont. It's not rocket science, Okums razor, we are no longer robots, gotta pay attention now. After a week of tryin out various rotations altering gems etc I have the solution (or so I'd like to think).

    If you wanna tank well (Both AoE and Single Target), your gonna need an alternate tanking talent tree and glyph set, more emphasis on the glyphs then tree but every little helps.

    The "Rotation"

    First of all we cant really call it a rotation since it changes depending on the situation, but it has a general setup. First il talk about the single target "rotation" since its easier and theres less to discuss.



    Order:
    1. Taunt, belive it or not its a good way to start the fight ensures u have instant agro.
    2. CS (Crusader Strike), we want those holy power points
    3. Judgement, always nice when you have sacred duty for that OP SHoR
    4. CS
    5. Avenger's Shield / Holy Wrath if AS is still on CD (no point waiting for the CD and Holy wrath hits all enemies now) / Hammer of Wrath (for the final 20% and this really can pack a punch)
    6. CS
    7. Shield of the Righteous
    Then rinse and repeat steps 2-7 with any boss in any raid. In ICC using this rotation i averaged 4.5k DPS over the whole instance up to Sindy. on festregut with the gastric bloat debuffs aid ofc i got 10k DPS with SHoR critting up to 70k (i coulnt believe it either and it was on my screen). Single target we are Imba (Dont even doubt it), the Warr with me couldnt hold aggro over me unless i stopped using spells and just auto attacked, although warrs have been complaining about bein nerfed i wouldnt know so im not gonna compare but i can say he is a good tank who knows what hes doin. All this with Seal of truth ofc.



    Useful Glyphs:
    • Prime; Crusader Strike, Seal of truth, Shield of the Righteous.
    • Major; Focused Shield, Ascetic Crusader, Salvation. (Divine protection may be useful in expansion and with the Vanishing powder im sure will come in handy)
    • Minor; doesnt really matter.
    Talents
    • Prot 33 / Retri 3
    • The most useful one for now outside the protection tree is crusade, but like the divine protection glyph we might want to keep an eye on "an eye for an eye"
    • in the prot tree i only exclude Improved hammer of Justice, Hallowed Ground and divine guardian. Yes i have Eternal Glory and il come to that in a sec.
    Survivability
    • Yes they nerfed our ardent defender and now we gotta be awake to use it.
    • But now along with AD, Div Prot and any trinkets you have, we also have Word of Glory to give us that little extra in the tough spots, and il tell you every now and then eternal glory wont use holy power and you got an instant SHoR attack or another WoG to top urself up (so it has its uses)
    I final note for Gems and our best friend Solid Majestic Zircon, we got a huge HP boost in new patch, swap out some Stam gems and add Exp and Hit rating till your capped (this will help with agro tho tbh i havnt lost agro singe target once (not even close) and then go for some Dodge and parry. Im not a big fan of the mastery and havnt reforged to add more block, not saying you shouldnt just depends on the person i guess. noone needs more than 48-50k unbuffed HP and if you use your socket bonuses you wont lose out on too much stamina. Not gonna bother too much on the Def side of this discussion as this thead was more about agro issues.

    I think that covers most of it on the single target side now my take on AoE tanking.

    Ignore all experiences of HC dungeons, DPS have gotten used to pew pew pew and no think think think. Don't blame them tho the HC dungeons are too easy that i find im almost useless till we get to a boss which usually means i use the same talent/glyph setup as above.

    However if you want to be the tankadin who gives that little extra for trash mobs in ICC or the adds on Gunship then you can always have a second prot tree with diff glyphs and a mini rotation that can be helpful.



    AoE "Rotation" (The If and but Rotation i fear it shall be called)
    1. Consecration
    2. HotR
    3. Holy Wrath / Avengers Shield (when Holy wrath is on CD and ofc no glyph so it can strike 3 enemies)
    4. HotR
    5. Avengers Shield (if not used in 3 or unless we get lucky and it procs)/ single target move judgment and HoW if enemy below 20% (do not use CS since it shares CD with HotR and do not use SHoR)
    6. HotR
    7. Now comes the debate (I expect a lot of people will argue with me here and its your call what you chose to do since i cant really make you do anything) I use WoG in most cases (until they fix threat generation) and SHoR on occasion.
    Let me explain myself now, none of the above are single target attacks apart from 5 which is the if and but bit where i find its better to hit single target than to stand there like a melon waiting for a CD. The reason i prefer WoG to the SHoR is simple, in my opinion it will generate more threat however "if" in step 5 you used your judgement and theres the 50% chance the SHoR is gonna be critical hit then by all means bash away, i too like to see that nice 25k+ crit "but if" you havnt used your judgment then id go with WoG since i belive in this case you will generate more threat, i await the counter argument, and yes i know WoG most likely will lose its agro adv but in the here and now its useful for aoe threat.

    Glyph Changes: Take out CS in prime and add HotR one, i stick with Seal of truth coz i dnt see much benefit in the Seal of Righteousness especially on ICC trash since i get 5 stacks up anyway, again HC mobs are BS and should be ignored at least until cata comes out. Take out Avengers Shield so it hits more mobs, prefereably for Glyph of dazing shield as others arnt so helpful and crusader strike glyph can be swapped for holy wrath when we run into the dragons or elementals.

    Talent Changes: Judgment of the Just, Reckoning (even single target im thinking of swapping this) are no longer neccesary since they will have little effect, adding the points to Divine Guardian which now may be helpful in the odd situation when u cant control agro, and hallowed ground, leaving you an extra point with which you can do what you like.

    Gems & Mastery: Im gonna wait for cata to come out before i invest in mastery, since i only see the added block value when faced with many mobs becoming useful its nothing we cant handle now and 2 sets of gear is just ridiculous so id keep gems and mastery same for now.

    I think i covered everything, i hope for some feedback on what people think especially if i got something wrong and i can better my pally. Hope this helps.
    Last edited by Thund-ED; 10-20-2010 at 06:22 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thund-ED View Post
    Gems & Mastery: Im gonna wait for cata to come out before i invest in mastery, since i only see the added block value when faced with many mobs becoming useful its nothing we cant handle now and 2 sets of gear is just ridiculous so id keep gems and mastery same for now.
    .
    So what are your reforging your excess dodge/parry into if not mastery atm. I know I had alot of dodge doing very little before reforging it.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

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    After killing the LK 10 hard and doing an infinite number of attempts on Halion 10h (stupid cutters+stupid dps=fail attempts) after the patch, here is my humble opinion on rotation and stuff in general.

    First, about word of glory, I don't even treat it as a "I'm taking heavy dmg"-only spell, I've been using it on every single target fight I get into after, say, 1min into the fight, when threat should already be very stable, it helps healers a lot, really does, and when you get an eternal glory proc, you can either heal yourself more, or SotR, I personally only use SotR after I have stable threat when: 1) I already was full health before the first WoG (therefore the second would be wasted cause I already have the GbtL bubble up) or, 2) I'm not too low on health and I got Sacred duty up.

    Now about the rotation.
    Avenger's shield is generating pretty decent threat both on multi target and on single target fights. So I use it every time it's off CD. When I get a Grand Crusader proc I usually only get the proc notice after I used another skill (this is probably due to my latency), and still I use AS before the next CS.
    Basically what I think is you should use avenger's shield as the first spell on single target fights, as it can proc on the very first CS.
    I've been using Consecration pretty much as a filler when I have nothing else to use even for AoE fights. I solo tanked LK 10 hard doing that and there were hardly any ghouls on the rest of the raid, even with a frost dk doing huge aoe damage, and a fire mage's living bomb on both the horror and the boss.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    So what are your reforging your excess dodge/parry into if not mastery atm. I know I had alot of dodge doing very little before reforging it.
    agreed, i reforged most of my items and the added mastery is pretty impressive, did not think it would be. so thank you uglybbtoo. here is a much more in depth link relating to the new mastery for paladins

    http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...rb_v=viewtopic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thund-ED View Post
    agreed, i reforged most of my items and the added mastery is pretty impressive, did not think it would be. so thank you uglybbtoo. here is a much more in depth link relating to the new mastery for paladins

    http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...rb_v=viewtopic
    I checked some numbers on my own tank. I tweaked his gear to hit the melee hit and dodge expertise caps, and reforged most of his other gear for mastery. The actual numbers are pretty similar - 1% dodge would give me about 3% block, but steady damage reduction trumps spikey damage reduction, so that's a good thing. I actually got pretty close to hitting the block cap again, I'm gonna see if I can't reach after I get some numbers on current miss rates.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  6. #6
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    Thund-ED,

    As a note, WoG and all heals are still on the 25% modifier from Wrath, despite the blue post saying they would remove that. I don't know if that changes your results or not, but just passing it on. I tested it the night before last.

  7. #7
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    To the OP, I don't see the point of pulling with Hand of Reckoning. Yes, you get a fixate but only for 3 seconds and I like taunt to be available for mobs who somehow get past me. What I do to pull is:
    (a) mark skull (for heroics, to keep dps in line)
    (b) exorcise (yes, dps have to wait 2 seconds)
    (c) judge, while running in (wake up dps!)
    (d) avenger shield (as mobs are now grouped up, so I get a bounce)

    I then move into the rotation. To bridge the gap between the above and the rotation (specifically to give time for judgement to cool down), I might do a CS-1HoP SoR (for holy shield)-Consecrate or some such.

    The advantage of the abover over HoRec-CS is that I am getting in three ranged attacks (Exo,J,AS) before getting into melee range and so have a solid lead on the skulled target. Exo is skippable if you are in a hurry (e.g. picking up spawning adds) or your party is full of gogogo to guys. I guess the above is rather less attractive if you have not gone for improved judgements and have glyphed AS, but still I think you can do better than pull by taunting.

    I certainly don't feel useless in 5-mans - I have everything locked down threat-wise and my damage, while no longer topping the meters like pre-patch, is respectable (e.g. 3k dps) and can often shame at least one dps.

  8. #8
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    You might consider rewording the talent and reforging/mastery sections, as in the link you posted it points out the benefits of reforging into the Block cap. The closer you are to 102.4%, the less spikey your damage becomes (albeit taking more overall damage by trading avoidance for physical mitigation) and the more powerful Reckoning becomes.

    Hallowed Ground is a poor talent, Consecrate really has no place in a single target fight. It's probably dropped once or twice in a AoE trash environment, the damage increase doesn't amount to much threat, and the mana returns from Sanctucary are sufficient when tanking 3 or more adds. Grand Crusader is also only a moderately useful talent, either as an additional filler on AoE fights or dropped in for Holy Wrath in a single target environment.

    Those factors combined led me (in an environment where I'm not threat capping the dps) to look more at utility/survivability. I specced Divine Guardian in 3.x and continue to now, it's a button that I can find a place to hit on most fights (when it's not bugged). Eternal Glory is also pretty sweet, it makes me happy when I land a crutch heal on myself then get to smash the bosses face in with SoR.

    My base build is http://www.wowhead.com/talent#sZGrhcRdzRRdc:koszVm

    It leaves 2 points, currently I'm dropping them into PotI in the Holy tree for the WoG heals, though the ranged Judgement is a strong contender if beginning of the fight threat is a struggle.

    I'd also note that HotR, depending on your gear, may well hit harder than CS until Vengeance stacks a bit. Since the CS glyph is a low threat increase, per this thread at Maintankadin http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...rb_v=viewtopic, I glyphed HotR since I use that at the beginning of fights. The last major slot is a toss up to me, and I'll swap it per fight if needed since the Vanishing Powder is so cheap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjornkitty View Post
    You might consider rewording the talent and reforging/mastery sections, as in the link you posted it points out the benefits of reforging into the Block cap. The closer you are to 102.4%, the less spikey your damage becomes (albeit taking more overall damage by trading avoidance for physical mitigation) and the more powerful Reckoning becomes.
    What most of us are seeing it's not that block is really that much better than before 4.01 its just the dodge curve is so dam steep after 20-21% as Martie noticed as well you end up trading a few percent of dodge for alot more percent block.

    When cata goes live I think block will gain even more value then atm it really is just min/max'ing dmg.

    TBH I haven't found anything I couldn't tank el-natural without any reforging I just took a little more damage and slightly spikey because with the changes to DR you will get a sequence where you will get hit 3 or 4 times in a row in a 5 min boss fight and your armor isn't what it was.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  10. #10
    For everyone who has said they are not reforging and they can still tank everything, what content are you tanking? Also taunting on the pull is nerfing your own threat, you should be pulling via Exo, AS, Judge, then your rotation. In terms of dps etc, 4.5k seems low as does 10k on fester, although this may simply be a content/gear thing as since the patch I have been pulling around the 6k mark and 13.5k on fester in all prot gear(haven't started the ret gear swap yet that is this week).

    Hallowed ground is actually a very solid talent considering most bosses in ICC don't move, any tank specing into eternal glory and not into DG is losing out on one of the best abilities in the game(think frostmourne room in H LK, a DG popped midway in allows the healers to catch up and eliminates the need for an extra tranquility or hymn).

    Block is that much better 30% of a boss hit is a hell of a lot more than 3-4k, the dodge DR has always been steep at the same point. I am not going to get into the math here go to maintankadin if you want to read up on it, but just tossing a thought out there, how much per hit are you shaving off from a frenzied shambler if every hit is at the least blocked?
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledknight View Post
    Hallowed ground is actually a very solid talent considering most bosses in ICC don't move
    You might want to head over to maintankadin and look again for yourself:

    http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...wtopic#p593311

    Hallowed Ground is a very weak DPS/TPS increase per talent point spent. I'd gladly take any utility talents over such a small gain.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    What most of us are seeing it's not that block is really that much better than before 4.01 its just the dodge curve is so dam steep after 20-21% as Martie noticed as well you end up trading a few percent of dodge for alot more percent block.

    When cata goes live I think block will gain even more value then atm it really is just min/max'ing dmg.

    TBH I haven't found anything I couldn't tank el-natural without any reforging I just took a little more damage and slightly spikey because with the changes to DR you will get a sequence where you will get hit 3 or 4 times in a row in a 5 min boss fight and your armor isn't what it was.
    I'm not sure how you can state "most of us", the only folks I have seen stating this (which are a minority) are near full 277 geared. My guess is a combination of maximum geared healers and maxed stamina give you just enough EH breathing room to ignore the block cap for now.

    I personally will trade taking more damage overall in a fight to avoid a 2-3 hit gib for which it is difficult to forecast using a CD.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Bjornkitty View Post
    I'm not sure how you can state "most of us", the only folks I have seen stating this (which are a minority) are near full 277 geared. My guess is a combination of maximum geared healers and maxed stamina give you just enough EH breathing room to ignore the block cap for now.

    I personally will trade taking more damage overall in a fight to avoid a 2-3 hit gib for which it is difficult to forecast using a CD.
    Where are you seeing this? The only places I have seen it are those not geared to this level, or those of us who like playing the bleeding edge of tps game and swap in ret gear. Any actual 277 geared prot pally who understands the mechanics knows and advocates that wth being block capped, only then are you in line with the dmg you were taking pre patch.
    www.blessthemartyrguild.com

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Akeber View Post
    You might want to head over to maintankadin and look again for yourself:

    http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...wtopic#p593311

    Hallowed Ground is a very weak DPS/TPS increase per talent point spent. I'd gladly take any utility talents over such a small gain.
    So you link thecks matlab, but then want to try and devalue the spec? What utility talents can you get from it? Eternal Glory? so once in a great while you can use a 2 HP ShoR and hope that the 3 HP WoG will not use the holy power? You also do get more than the tps from hallowed ground the mana reduction is huge and by having the ability to cast consecrate it eliminates the possibility for dead GCD's.
    www.blessthemartyrguild.com

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledknight View Post
    What utility talents can you get from it? Eternal Glory? so once in a great while you can use a 2 HP ShoR and hope that the 3 HP WoG will not use the holy power? You also do get more than the tps from hallowed ground the mana reduction is huge and by having the ability to cast consecrate it eliminates the possibility for dead GCD's.
    You don't ever use a 2 Holy Power ShoR. Even with a Sacred Duty proc it's a TPS loss. The potential value of Eternal Glory is if you use a WoG to heal yourself, an EG proc means you can still do the 3 point ShoR you skipped for WoG. Or back to back WoGs if you're still taking heavy damage. It's not enormously useful in current content (although it has its place here and there) but may prove more useful in a Cataclysm world where you're not topped off all of the time.

    Hallowed Ground - you don't need to take this to end up with a gapless rotation. A ShoR>CS>J>AS>HW priority is gapless and doesn't even use Consecration (and the TPS of such a priority queue is just about within experimental error of a Consecration rotation).

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