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Thread: Subtlety Rogue - Help!

  1. #1
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    Subtlety Rogue - Help!

    So previous to patch 4.0.1 I was Assassination PvP. I've been doing more research towards pve, but now I am a little bit curious of the pvp aspect now. So I did some research on elitist jerks, arena-junkies, and the WoW forums. I then tried out Subtlety and well.... I'm not sure if my poisons were wrong, gear was wrong, or if my rotation was just off but I sucked royally. I used the glyphs and specc recommended in this thread: http://www.arenajunkies.com/showthread.php?t=210143 And then tried out some duels with Wound Poison on my main hand, crippling on the off-hand.

    Well, as I said I didn't do so hot so I tried out the Mutilate pvp specc.... it was better, but I still didn't do as well as I thought. So.... I'm guessing subtlety IS now the better pvp spec, but I just would like to know what is the best spec, "rotation" and what to do in certain scenarios. Thanks!

  2. #2
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    I haven't tried Mut PvP yet, but Sub is definitely more fun. BGs were a bit broken last week when I tried things out, but peeling off 30K in two GCDs really can't be beat.

  3. #3
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    Alright.... that's good and all but... that didn't really answer my questions. What poisons and ability order / priorities should I be using?

  4. #4
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    Poisons are somewhat up to you. If you can successfully keep Waylay up, then there's no need for crippling, and you can either run double wound or wound/mind numbing. If you haven't picked up Waylay (there are possibly other more attractive talents), then wound/crippling.

    Sub PvP has never had a set priority or rotation. My usual opener is Premed, Recouperate, Shadowstep, and then into actually attacking.

    Depending on who I'm fighting and how quickly the fight will end, I have a few options.

    Ambush/Garrote, Hemo, Rupture against most clothies does very well.
    Garrote, Hemo, CS, BS spam (or Shadowdance->Ambush spam) -> Rupture works well on plate classes.

    Get Hemo up as quickly as possible, and then make use of your bleeds. They really do a disgusting amount of damage with the Hemo debuff and Sanguinary Vein. Also, Backstab is better than Hemo given the option.

    The main thing to keep in mind is that Sub is far more positionally dependant. If you don't have good keybinds that will let you reposition yourself while using your abilities, you'll need to fix that first.

  5. #5
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    Also, if you have a bad latency you will not have fun as a subtlety rogue, simply because the enemy is not where you think they are, and your main abilities are really positioning dependent.

    But when it comes together and you tear this clothie apart before the stun runs out you will have such a huge grin on your face, subtlety is the most rogue-ish spec in my opinion, you sneak up, unload this massive burst, clean kill, and disappear into the shadows and wait for the next target. Also, stuff like D&D, consecrate, AoE spam is not so crippling because you can simply jump over it with shadowstep. Subtlety is the hardest specc to play, but it is so rewarding when you are able to pull it off.

  6. #6
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    Sounds good, also what gear should I be going with? Like so much pvp set gear until a certain resil rating, some pve gear, what? And a noob question..... recuperate can be used without breaking stealth?

  7. #7
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    Recuperate CAN be used in stealth safely.
    As some people have commented, the spec demands great positioning. A lot like Mutilate in BC.
    Also like others have commented there isn't a so to speak rotation, priorities change depending on what your fighting, and in the case of battlegrounds, how much health it has.
    As for poisons, if you feel you can keep good positioning to keep waylay up, then that kills the necessity of needing crippling. Personally I keep wound/mindnumbing on my equipped daggers, and a third dagger with another poison. In a bg's case this could be deadly poison.
    Don't under estimate the power of garrote and rupture on a mage running around. I've had quite a few that kited themselves to death just from the ticks.
    For gear wise my character is wearing all pvp gear aside from the Ashen Verdict ring, cloak and trinket, my 2's team hit 2500 last season and while many things have changed it's still serving me really well.
    By far Sub offers the biggest advantage to anyone that can think outside of the box and be creative. Shadowstepping a charge/intercept never dies in being really humorous. DK yanked you away from your target? Shadow step back to it! A lot of things are no brainers for the spec but if you really take some time to play with the spec you can find a lot of interesting tricks.
    The most stressful, yet provides the most gratification..
    Tanking <3

  8. #8
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    With resilience values the way they are now, just stack resil as much as you can. Especially with Recuperate rolling, you'll likely have no issues going 1 on 1 with most people in BGs. I've got my ICC25H daggers (Rib Spreader/Lungbreaker), my ICC rep ring, and Death's Choice as my only non-PvP gear. I've also reforged from crit to haste, since it's nothing short of amazing now (and my crit rate is still 46%).

    I took down a prot warrior in EotS last night who had 48K health. I finished the fight at 70%.

  9. #9
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    So let me try and guesstimate what I would do in pvp as sub. Go for 10 resil + 10 agi gems in yellow, agility in red, agility + hit in sockets. Or, pure resil in some yellow gem slots. Then, go wound / mindnumbing if I have waylay, otherwise go wound / crippling. Then let's say on a clothie who has really low health I'd go Cheapshot -> Hemo until about 3-5 combo points then kidney, then shadow dance and ambush them to death. If it's a high health or well geared clothie though, go garrote -> Hemo until 3-4 CP, then Rupture, then try to go from there but do eviscerate with the CPs. Then if they get away do shadowstep, then perhaps do shadow dance to get some stuns or major burns down.

    THEN if it's a plate wearer, attempt to burn the living crap out of them, disarm them, and rupture through them. That sound about right?

  10. #10
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    I rarely bother with stunlocks, unless it's a healer I'm trying to finish off. Remember, Cheap Shot and Kidney Shot now share diminishing returns, so you have to be smarter about when to use them.

    Second thing to note: Shadowstep. Garrote damage increased by 30%? Coupled with Glyph of Garrote, you are now a caster's worst nightmare. Garrote + Hemo + Rupture = so much pain. You can even keep rupture rolling with Eviscerate now.

    Use Hemo to get the debuff and the bleed up, but it's no longer hemo spam like it was in 3.x. Backstab is better damage per energy than Hemo.

  11. #11
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    Im honestly having trouble with mut, simply because I can get kited so easy with mut. The damage is there, but its just impossible.

    PvP as a rogue now revolves around keeping recuperate up at all times you are not in stealth

    Vs healers your not going to kill them in with your first shadow dance, get them to use their trinket, you can only usually do this with shadow dance. Once they burn it blind and then restealth, sap and distract to make them think your going to open, but dont until shadow dance has 10-20 seconds until it will come up. Reopen with cheap shot or garrote (it really does not matter as it will be off DR when you try and finish them off).

    Your going to need a combination of the following, Recuperate up (always), followed by rupture, or slice N dice. (you dont need both) Once you have these up get a 5 combo point kidney (not a 4 pt). shadow dance, You should be Ambush premed - eviscerate - ambush - garrote followed by hemo - eviscerate. Dont worry if you dont get the shadow dance perfect, it will come with practice.


    Vs other DPS classes this really will varry, vs hunters or demo locks, there is just nothing you can do to win when you duel the good ones. The general advice I can give you, keep recuperate up at all times, dont use shadow dance until they have used trinket and are not immune to stuns. Remember stealth is your friend, see that shaman use wolves and blood lust? cloak and vanish and wait it out, its cheap but its how rogues are (lol).

    Subtlety is about managing your cooldowns, kidney shot, dismantle, shadow dance, shadow step, evasion, blind, vanish, cloak, sprint, gouge, kick all are cooldowns you have to manage. This will come with practice and lots of keybinds that you will use once or twice a fight

    ON hemo vs backstab

    Honestly at this point, it does not matter until you can pick up pucturing wounds in assassintion tier 2 talent tree. Back stab needs to crit for the glyph and for the positional use of it. Until that happens, it is on par with hemo. This will only last until cataclysm, and even then it might be better to spec into combat from sub. We cannot know yet though.

  12. #12
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    i usually go with double cripple. My plan of attack doesnt leave room for my target to heal themselves. But when your choices are crip and wound, you cant really go wrong.

    Rotation is all situational in pvp for every class and spec, but sub pvp is very distinct and the mechanics only really work a "certain way". That "ceratin way" means stealth- and lots of it.

    What i like to do is pick a target and pop premed. Now, if they have more thank 35k+ hp, i burn the premed with a recoup to get the energy flowing, shadstep into an ambush, hit kidney (3 point stun) and hop into shad dance (as quickly as possible). you can macro some of that to save time. once in shad dance, i rotate between ambush and evis. The premed+recoup is giving me energy regen: enough regen to make this opener and follow up possible.

    If the target is rather squishy, i attempt the same rotation only instead of wasting premed on recoup, i pop kidney shot after the inital amubsh- giving me a 5 point stun. From there, i go into shad dance and do the same thing: ambush, evis, ambush evis. It really is a potent combo once you get the timing right.

  13. #13
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    Subtlety Rogue Help

    The worgen I rolled in beta was a combat rogue. Worgen fit the rogue class incredibly well, although they might prefer assassination or subtlety over combat.

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