4.0 tanking - aggro - dps

[Arturius]

Seems to me like agg is now more of a problem, particularly in dungeons, when dps hits multiple targets. Do you think the below might be a good macro at the beginning of the instance?

/party 4.0 changed tanking: swinging back toward vanilla, aoe taunt seriously nerfed and now mostly single target. It is now even more important for all dps to target the same target as tank to help control agg. Also, cc is important again. TY

Any ideas/suggestions?

TY

[Mäcintosh]

I don't know. I've had minor problems but they have been from a shadow priest and a fire Mage. Either that or dps hitting mob before I even pull. Otherwise, if I pull like I normally do, I can hold aggro on most mobs or taunt back the one that starts to get away. It's tougher, but still manageable IMO.

After downing Ingvar in HUK, in what seemed like less than 5 seconds after his reincarnation (he never got his first dark smash off)

Druid: Did we just kill him in like one second?

Me: Blame Spriest, his fault,

Spriest: Penis

Spriest has left the party.

LOL


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[Mäcintosh]

Art,
Just a note to let you know, I'm having easy runs and hard runs due to dps. My last group was fine because I had a hunter who knew what misdirect did and used it very well.

However, I had a problem with a DK in a heroic who started matching my threat and pulling off of me at times even though we had a huge lead on everyone else. I think he may have been in blood spec though...(dks, can you blood boil out of blood spec?) is that not the tanking spec now? That's the only problem I had and it seemed like even though he was signed up as dps and played that way through most, he really caused me problems on the last boss. But we were so overpowering anyway, it really didn't matter.


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[Maèl]

Tanking trash really can be annoying. But you don't have to tank all mobs. Just the majority and the ugliest.
While tanking in PUGs I find that the one that gets away usually dies before he reaches the far end of the room. Exactly 1 second after I taunted him back.

The only places where you need to tank all mobs are also the places where spamming AoE will get you killed.
Don't sweat the small stuff. If you have trouble in some instances(the rage and Vengeance killer Violet Hold springs to mind, oh how I hate the and thine vile pig brother COT4), well so is everybody else.

[Dragaan]

Yes, aggro management is harder in 4.0 than it has been. It's going to get much more difficult in cataclysm I believe. For tanks who are still learning to adjust, just remind the party to follow the kill order, if you decide to set one up, even if its only 1 marked mob at the start of each pull. Marking the pulls will be necessary for a lot of tanks/groups at the start of cataclysm, so get used to it now. Don't be too anal about it tho. Holding aggro off the best dps is still very possible if you're practiced enough, so don't try to tell the dps "omg it's impossible to hold threat now so don't dps hard or i kick you", etc. Tanking runs for people who make your job very hard is the best way to learn, so just roll with it.

[PatrikL]

It does seem that tanking has become a little bit more difficult since the patch. Mostly because many tanks arent used to the changes yet or simply havent bothered to read up. On the other hand things die so quickly that its easier for many dps to just nuke full out. I tend to watch my aggro if I get a tank (the few times I dps) who is about equally geared but just apologize in advance for ripping aggro away if the tank is severely undergeared.

For example last night I got a warrior tank in CoS who had 22.3k (sic) hp. Needless to say he had the least hp in the group and it was quite obvious from the start that anything more than autoattacking would steal aggro so I just tried to kill things before they killed me. I did of course let him have a few seconds on each group to try to establish some aggro but since he didnt do much more than autoattacking himself that didnt do a difference in the world. During the last parts I simply switched to blood presence to help the healer a bit (since I took aggro of every single mob there anyway in frost presence).
Now I have of course been a beginer tank myself at one point so I understand how it can be and did of course apologize a few times and checked that what I was doing was ok. If one does the same as I did and at the same time tells the tank he is bad/an idiot/noob or just beeing nasty in general I think its a different thing. At least I hope so...

[IggyTheCorrupted]

Now I have of course been a beginer tank myself at one point so I understand how it can be and did of course apologize a few times and checked that what I was doing was ok. If one does the same as I did and at the same time tells the tank he is bad/an idiot/noob or just beeing nasty in general I think its a different thing. At least I hope so...

I am slowly coming around to the patch changes. Overly not thrilled as my Cleave and Heroic Strike macros became useless... and I have to use Rend (which I stopped using after like level 15). Needless to say, things are rough, but getting there. The one thing that is turning me off from tanking more then the patch adjustments are the later described DPSers in that post of yours.

If I have to continue hearing "ZOMG NOOB!" and "*expletive* tank" from uncooperative DPS who still think AoE nuke everything in sight is the way to go, I might have to reconsider the role I play in this game. I have been having horrid flashbacks of level 60 when I first really got into the role and was still figuring things out.

[Solassan]

If I have to continue hearing "ZOMG NOOB!" and "*expletive* tank" from uncooperative DPS who still think AoE nuke everything in sight is the way to go, I might have to reconsider the role I play in this game. I have been having horrid flashbacks of level 60 when I first really got into the role and was still figuring things out.

They easiest way I've found to deal with these people is to not let them get the chance to say anything by just throwing on my dps gear (232-245 badge) swapping to my fury spec and steamrolling through any heroic other than H HoR. The amount of DPS will melt any trash in seconds and bosses last an average of 15 seconds, meaning the healer only has to deal with the opening burst at the begging of the pull.

[Viertel]

The only difficult thing I've had in regards to threat is the ability-queue system currently locked into place.

I really don't find AE threat that much difficult. Granted, I *did* come from TBC where tab sunder/devastate, mouseover sunder macros on sheeped targets, 4 limit TClap, and a shock-wave less environment did cause me to rely on what I had at the time. The average size of a mob pack in WotLK actually went down from TBC heroics so the issue is tanks really needing to not be lazy anymore and use what tools they have.

I see threat gen on huge packs definitely a bit more challenging than it was in WotLK but overall the threat game hasn't really changed for me. If anything, those huge packs of monsters almost never cause any real damage so DPS opening up on them immediately isn't a big issue. If they get loose it doesn't matter.

If it's DPS that are just laying in like retards at the start of fights, let 'em die. Just like in TBC they'll learn after a few repair bills, because they're certainly going to learn as monster strength increases when they level.

Bottom line: If you can't generate that reliable aggro on the massive amounts of monsters you used to pull in heroics/raids, then don't pull them.

[feralminded]

I tanked a fair amount of heroic ICC25 last night on my druid and I can safely say I feel useless on trash and OP on bosses. I may have been "doing it wrong" but swipe on a 6 second CD just isn't cutting it in trash packs. I mean once vengeance stacks up a bit it does start hitting harder but still, no effective way to hold aggro on a pack for more than a few seconds.

On bosses or larger mobs I was routinely in the 20k TPS range without a terribly optimal rotation (still getting used to it) so I imagine by "doing it right" I could have been more like 25k TPS. That's just dumb. Our MT is a warrior and he was able to crack 10-11k DPS on many fights where Vengeance fully stacked ... that was kind of wild.

[Aggathon]

Call it aggro or threat! This thread title was very confusing for me!!

[uglybbtoo]

You just thought it was about you agg :-)

And feral you see what we were all saying there really is only limited control you have on the trash with geared dps all you can really do is taunt stuff back if they drag too much. Geared dps have to be prepared to tank stuff because of the new bad balance. Shadow priest, Locks, DK's, feral druids are all easily capable of tanking 1 or 2 to death. I really just try and protect the squishie mages.

Yeah bosses are more trivial than they were before because stuff dies so much faster and threat isnt a real issue.

[Maèl]

I'm not sure this is the right way to go.

Instead we should reteach DPS how to not pull agg(athon). Either we do it now or it will be a problem in the expansion.
This is a grueling task. But we also have to relearn trash tanking.

Take for instance the second trash pull in ICC. You get a couple of those bone thingies which if you get a head start ar easily tankable. But there do spawn new ones one at a time. While you have solid threat on the original group you'll have to grab aggro on the newcomers. This isn't as easy in a AoE situation since if you focus on the newcomers you might fall behind on the main group.
Before 4.0 we were just lazy and spammed our AE stuff and simply taunted the newcomers while tabbing through the group. Now you actually risk losing mobs to those DPS who had their AOE abilities nerfed and prefer to focus stuff down.

I've actually started marking one of these mobs as a focus target. I'm already training for Cata because I'm a bit scared of the transition. I only started tanking in WotLK but I raid since vanilla and I remember how ugly tanking mob groups could be. You were considered a god amongst men if you could hold 4+ mobs against massive AOE.

If DPS gives you a head start you should really train to keep all that's there to tank. That's the goal. If it doesn't work out it's usually not a wipe and in 5mans you don't really need a proper tank anymore. But still we will have to work on it again. Which also involves training DPS. Which I won't try in PUGs.

A grueling thought.

[mistersix]

Call it aggro or threat! This thread title was very confusing for me!!

Same. I have a guildmate that does that and it sounds like he's talking about breakfast all the time.

[Arturius]

Thanks y'all for all the comments. It's good to know I'm not the only one finding a difference between trash packs and bosses. Good news though, as stated above the more I tweak the new tools we have the easier it's getting to manage agg. This of course makes sense, but for a reason that may not be obvious.

When I first 'relearned' my class after the patch, I was disappointed to say the least and I think most of us probably felt things had changed for the worse. Reading new posts about protadin builds, et al and trying those didn't make things much better. Seemed like even though significant changes were made to our talent trees/spells/glyphs, the tactics that we used weren't really that different. Therein lies the problem to a large extent.

I don't know about other tanking classes, but if it's the same for them as it is for Pallys this was a huge mistake. In the evolution back toward vanilla where everyone in the group had to be on their toes and work hard all the time to avoid disaster, the complexity of how our tools are now intertwined has gone up a notch. As an example, published wisdom was to build holy power by either hitting crusader strike or hammer of righteousness three times depending upon whether you were tanking single or multiple targets. This approach totally missed the boat.

The spell/talent/glyph descriptions don't make the best approach obvious at first. After changing talents four times and glyphs three, and reading as much as I could, reforging twice, and wearing myself out at dummies with rotation experiments the answer arose. The way stacks, procs and crits deliver the most bang for the buck is to focus more on the way our tools are intertwined now. For me it became obvious that the only approach that elevated my game well beyond pre-patch was to focus solely on the proper balance between single target and multiple target abilities. What may not be obvious is that I don't mean you should use single target tools/procs/crits when fighting a single target and those designed for multiple target when engaging them, we must balance both all the time regardless how many we are holding agg on.

I have added to a thread entitled 'Protection Paladins in 4.0.1' that talks about this evolution and some results. As you might expect, if I were to write those posts today they would be different, my tactics have continued to evolve, but the point here is that the answer was completely different than early post-patch conventional wisdom. Also, given the complexity at which the myriad of options has grown I believe we will all have builds/tactics that may be quite different than others in the same class. Blizz did a good job of allowing us to customize toward our preferred methods even though at first it seemed the smaller talent tree would do just the opposite. It's not fcfs anymore! lol

I'm very happy to say that now I'm tanking much better than before having figured out the subtle relationships between talents/glyphs/spells and rotation. The way I know this is that now it seems I build my sta stack to max ALL the time while also procing one thing or another almost 50% of the time (up from about 20-30%) and criting about 50% of the time (also up from about 20-30%). It's fknfantastic! Special sht happening all the time.

Now, about managing agg... the difference in threat that I generate now, and the ability to hold agg is waaaay better. Still slightly different between dungeons and raids, it's no longer a serious problem in dungeons unless an OP dps is a total dipshit and cares more about his dps score than the group's benefit/accomplishing the mission. As an example and as mentioned above, when I start the first trash pull in ICC 10 I go well past the door and start the pull of what seems like a non-stop bombardment of trash and hold aggro the whole while against almost all of them from almost all dps/heals. I could never do that before the patch and revelation of the fundamental difference in tactics after the patch vis-a-vis the more subtle but seriously effective balance of single/multiple target attacks to keep stacks/procs/crits up all the time. Before I would do what most of us did/do... barely inside trying to time pulls of the trash groups as they pass.

To illustrate what I'm doing, while most of the rotations I read about involve four or so main spells I use six in my default rotation, and that is without my two main AoE spells. On top of that, since procs are happening all the time I have to deviate from the rotation quickly to pop these 'freebies' and then jump back into the rotation... and usually NOT at the beginning nor where I left off. Instead I have to snapshot the new process because it usually changes due to the proc. What I mean is, it's a constantly dynamic fight now. All this without even considering how I have to adapt when I do use AoE, or stun/interupt, or keep my mana up (which is all the time now without even using nerfed divine plea).

I've also found a way to 'reach out and touch someone' when I pull. Instead of just one ranged pull spell, I use three before he even gets close enough to melee... lots of agg before a warrior even lays a hand on him/them. And oh, btw these three hits provide the first 3 of the 5 required 'single target' attacks to keep my sta stacks maxed before the fight even begins. This wouldn't have happened if I didn't use judgement way different than at first obvious and traditional pre-patch as well as focusing a talent point and glyph in a way I would never have done prior to the revelation that this new necessity to balance attacks regardless of how many you engage outweighs old habits.

I'm very, very, very happy to report I've achieved KS. Given the new flexibility we have I found that by changing 2 talent points and 1 glyph I can now stun blood beasts and valks 33% more often even while MT and grab Raging Spirits more quickly, even while each of these are at a farther range than before the change in build.

Anyway, I'm happy to report that agg has improved. My threat is way up because my dps as well as damage overall is way up. This is only possible because I used a build that wasn't at first obvious. I suspect we all have a chance to discover and unlock these golden nuggets.

Thanks again for all the input above. Knowing I'm not the only one who saw agg differences really helps.


Good night Chesty Puller wherever you are.
Semper Fi