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Thread: 4.0.1 - Let's Talk Numbers

  1. #21
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    http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t29453-c..._85_cataclysm/
    According to new tables warriors should gain 1% dodge for 73 agi at level 80.
    Something wrong on live servers with this.

    Added. Just re-tested and looks like the issue has been resolved. Tested with Battle Shout (+155 agi according to the tooltip), without any gear equipped and got 2,14% Dodge, which is correct according to the formula above (2,14 x 73 = 156,22).
    Last edited by Ericoze; 10-16-2010 at 12:11 AM.

  2. #22
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    Nothing changes about stat priority in ICC. Stamina is your best friend, armor is your second best friend, and avoidance is that kid you hang out with if stamina and armor are busy.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrelnut View Post
    Uhhh casters still shoot u, might wanna re-think that stam dropping lawl
    Don't make me out to be retarded, I am perfectly aware that fights are situational. I was merely commenting on the FACT that if you have 100% avoidance and can not be hit, then dodge/parrying/blocking is a sure thing. It's a funny idea that while avoidance at one point is worth so little in terms of EH, but if you reach a certain point you are guaranteed 30% less physical damage all the time. If you think im gemming parry to hit that cap you are wrong, but I can guarantee im not ignoring the concept. I would have no issue dropping 3k hp to take 30% less guaranteed physical damage on an all physical damage fight, that's just common sense. Personally I think they buffed corpse tongue coin, and on certain fights it's probably not a bad idea to use it, like on festergut if you can hit the cap. The proc is like 6k armor which is pretty crazy.

    Trust me though I am a huge supporter of both EH and common sense. Enjoy our unhittable avoidance caps while we can, Cata will hit and we wont even be remotely close to them and the world will seem much more simple again when the only option is to stack stamina and the occasional armor.
    He who is afraid to lose will never win.
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  4. #24
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    are we seriously arguing EH vs Avoidance AGAIN. -_-' this is really getting tiresome. I'll close threads if I have to, but I'd rather not if people are actually discussing things of relevance. No one cares if you weren't a stam stacker before and don't want to now. You were a bad tank, Period.

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  5. #25
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    Way to read through my post... pretty sure I didn't say I am not stacking stam nor that I didn't stack stam before. And I am pretty sure I am not a bad tank.
    He who is afraid to lose will never win.
    Only when the power of love overcomes the worlds love of power, will mankind know peace.

  6. #26
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    All questions about avoidance and it reliance on can be answered by reading this thread

    http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...light=aggathon

    There is a section on avoidance more specifically a graph where it models your chance to be hit 5 times in a row. With the recent changes to Armor AND avoidance AND the addition of mastery it is not impossible for a boss to 3 shot you ( O HAI 3rd INHALE FESTER, HAVE YOU MET SOULREAPER) You cannot repeat CANNOT include block as avoidance. It reduces damage and is a form of RNG mitigation that has bad internet meme written all over it (crit block lol yo dawg heard you liked RNG in yo RNG so we put some crit block in yo block so you can block while you block).

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironsides View Post
    Way to read through my post... pretty sure I didn't say I am not stacking stam nor that I didn't stack stam before. And I am pretty sure I am not a bad tank.
    relax, i was referring to the general theme of this thread, not at any particular person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
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  8. #28
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    Being unhittable pretty much went out the window with the block changes. Since you can no longer fully block a hit, and block ends up just negating 30% of the hit or 60% of the hit if you're lucky (as opposed to having enough SBV to completely mitigate a hit). I'm noticing it's a pain in the butt to solo old content since I can't just fully block the hits...and shield block has hurt me more than it's helped me in those places.

  9. #29
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    I don't think it's right to keep talking as if nothing has changed. For one, items with bonus armor (not armor trinkets) were basically gutted. Sadface at seeing bile encrusted medallion with 216 armor. Has anyone seen/done the math to show that these items aren't just plain worse? I don't see any change to the armor maths on EJ @ lvl 80...

    Secondly, we have the option of reforging. We can take some points from dodge, make them parry, mastery or whatever. If I interpret this right, it should mean the following:
    - it makes sense to try to keep dodge and parry ratings roughly the same so that they are both at the same point on the diminishing return
    - at a certain point in dodge/parry DRs, it will make more sense to reforge dodge/parry to mastery (or another stat that you value) because the DRs become harsh. I was talking to a guy who reckoned this was around 21% or so, but I haven't seen the math on this.

  10. #30
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    21% seems low.
    Last edited by Wichowe; 10-16-2010 at 07:48 AM.

  11. #31
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    slightly off topic: assuming i hve nothing better to do today, i have a education, and i understand highschool algebra... where would i even start looking for the information to run equations?
    "Dear Santoro, Your wisdom has enlightened me. Thanks!"

  12. #32
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    Well, in terms of unhittable I meant a full hit, the highest hit you can then take is a max of 70% the bosses damage.

    In terms of the parry/dodge Drs, I have heard similar to 21% i believe(last I heard) something like 21.44% for parry and 21.6% for dodge? I have been reforging almost all of my avoidance to mastery because personally I feel it gives your tank a more EH feel, instead of a ton of dodging/parrying then taking big hits that are spikey, you end up dodging/parrying a little less and blocking alot more. You will have the same type of spikes but they are less common. People are arguing to avoid mastery(some people anyway) because it is not as good as a full mitigated hit, but I feel while it might not result in less total damage during a fight, it will give your healers a steadier health pool to heal. I have been starting to think a lot about this and atm I am pretty set in stone upon this outlook. I feel it's great atm, idk if my opinion will change in cata when we have a lot less of dodge/parry/block.
    He who is afraid to lose will never win.
    Only when the power of love overcomes the worlds love of power, will mankind know peace.

  13. #33
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    At the risk of my first post here getting me tarred and feathered, I'd like to cross-post something I posted on the official forums on the topic of mastery vs. parry vs. dodge and the relative value of each. I've done very little of my own theorycrafting, but I find the entire subject fascinating and want to do more of it. Please forgive me if this logic is obviously flawed in some way not apparent to me.

    Essentially, you sum up the base miss chance, dodge, and parry since they all represent cases of no damage taken. This represents some percentage of the scenarios. Then you handle the percentage of scenarios dealing with block and critical block. Then you tack on the damage that isn't avoided.

    As an equation:
    ( 1 - (0.05 + d% + p%) )*D - D*b%*( 0.3*(1 - (c% + p%*0.1)) + 0.6*(c% + p%*0.1))

    Where d% is your dodge percent, p% is your parry percent, D is your incoming damage (arbitrary), b% is your block percent, and c% is your critical block percent.

    Breaking the equation down:
    ( 1 - (0.05 + d% + p%) )*D is your incoming damage before accounting for blocked damage. 5% of attacks miss, d% of attacks are dodged, p% of attacks are parried. Take the sum of the percentages, subtract from 1 to get the percentage of occasions where those things don't happen, then multiply that by incoming damage to identify how much damage you're taking on average without accounting for block.

    D*b%*( 0.3*(1 - (c% + p%*0.1)) + 0.6*(c% + b%*0.1)) is then subtracted from that damage value, as it represents the occasions when block comes into play. Without accounting for critical block, b% of the time, you block 30% of the damage. That would look like D*b%*0.3 (remember, we're subtracting this from incoming damage not handled by miss, dodge, and parry). But since critical block happens on c% of our blocks, we need to modify the 0.3.

    (1-c%) of the time, we do a normal block, which results in 30% reduction of the incoming damage. On top of that, c% of the time we do a critical block, which results in 60% reduction of the incoming damage. We also need to account for Hold the Line, which happens on 10% of our parries. If p% of damage is avoided by parries, we represent this with p%*0.1. So, essentially, we're doing normal blocks 1-(c%+p%*0.1) of the time and critical blocks c%+p%*0.01 of the time.

    What's interesting to me about this method is that we can use any arbitrary value of D to represent incoming damage. We can use D=100 to get a direct percentage of damage taken on average for any fight.

    Where this diverges from simulations is that simulations (and the game itself) tend to be more individually variable due to duration, in situ procs, and so on. However, given a sufficiently high number of simulations, their average results should be the same as this model...right?

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steakdinner View Post
    Being unhittable pretty much went out the window with the block changes. Since you can no longer fully block a hit,
    It's still quite possible (and arguably easier) to become unhittable. Unhittable never meant that you never take any damage - that would be invulnerable.
    Unhittable is simply removing regular hits from the Combat table.

    Uncrittable - Removing Crits from the table
    Uncrushable - Removing crushing blows from the table
    Unhittable - removing regular hits from the tabel (all that's left is Miss/Dodge/Parry/Block)
    Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

  15. #35
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    Seriously silly thread with so much mixed up info.

    People are talking about historic stuff and extrapolating data from low end figures.

    The fact's as most of us have found:

    From 4.01 dodge and parry have very steep curves you reach a point where stacking that stat does very little. Go ahead stack dodge/parry all you like it reaches a point where it does next to nothing.

    You still can't dodge/parry ranged attacks, spells, or bleed effects.
    You still can't dodge/parry while being stunned/knocked down.

    Magic being a large portion of damage in ICC EH is still going to king until cata style instances.

    You don't need to work on block to be unhittable to tank ICC you can do it el-natural but changing some unused dodge/parry to block will help the healers out. Essentially blizz have made sure we effectively out gear the instances atm so suit yourself.

    Threat was the single biggest issue most tank's had which was solved by tuning down fire mages and for warrior/pally tanks adjusting to the fact we need slow high top end damage weapons which is NOT most tanking weapons.

    If I missed anything feel free to insert.

    EDIT: BTW they have capped armor but does anyone know if there is going to be a stamina cap? That would stop EH stuffing as well.
    Last edited by uglybbtoo; 10-19-2010 at 09:05 PM.
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  16. #36
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    The way I look at Unhittable is that it takes the whole "Block is RNG mitigation and you can't count on it" out of the equation. Once you get to the unhittable point, not even counting critical blocks, you can treat Block as if it were armor. Say your armor gives you 65% damage reduction. You take 35% damage. If you NEVER take a hit, you can treat that block rating as if it were an additional 10% damage reduction. One way to think about it is "How much armor would it take to go from 65% damage reduction to 75% damage reduction?" I don't know the exact number, but it's like 15000 armor.

    And people need to stop bringing up Stamina. I don't think anyone is suggesting to regem away from stamina. The only question would be in regards to trinkets. I'm considering giving up my heroic Sindi Fang and reg Hallion Scale and replacing with reforged mastery heroic Coin and Ony Trinket. That puts me at about 96% unhittable right now. I'd even consider changing to a different neck and cloak if I can find one with more avoidance to try and hit 102%.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Porcell View Post
    The way I look at Unhittable is that it takes the whole "Block is RNG mitigation and you can't count on it" out of the equation. Once you get to the unhittable point, not even counting critical blocks, you can treat Block as if it were armor. Say your armor gives you 65% damage reduction. You take 35% damage. If you NEVER take a hit, you can treat that block rating as if it were an additional 10% damage reduction. One way to think about it is "How much armor would it take to go from 65% damage reduction to 75% damage reduction?" I don't know the exact number, but it's like 15000 armor.

    And people need to stop bringing up Stamina. I don't think anyone is suggesting to regem away from stamina. The only question would be in regards to trinkets. I'm considering giving up my heroic Sindi Fang and reg Hallion Scale and replacing with reforged mastery heroic Coin and Ony Trinket. That puts me at about 96% unhittable right now. I'd even consider changing to a different neck and cloak if I can find one with more avoidance to try and hit 102%.
    Basically what I was saying, I would consider it if I had something more like the corpse tongue coin I could use instead of the ony trinket which is terrible. And again if you can't hit that 102% you are trading EH for RNG which is a bad call in any case. Also situational due to only working against melee heavy fights. Still all a very interesting concept, at least somebody understood what I was talking about.
    He who is afraid to lose will never win.
    Only when the power of love overcomes the worlds love of power, will mankind know peace.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    are we seriously arguing EH vs Avoidance AGAIN. -_-' this is really getting tiresome. I'll close threads if I have to, but I'd rather not if people are actually discussing things of relevance. No one cares if you weren't a stam stacker before and don't want to now. You were a bad tank, Period.
    you do realize that this entire discussion is turned upside down now, right? ALL of the previous discussion (in which i largely agreed with the consensus of avoidance having little value in preventing tank deaths) depended on the fundamental limitation of being able to reach very high avoidance values in the first place.

    with chill of the throne gone, and mastery making it quite easy to get over 90% dodge+parry+miss+block, it's only natural to re-examine the entire argument for those still raiding WotLK content. threatening to close the thread doesn't really seem like the best way to spur such a discussion.

    being 95% unhittable gives you a very, very tiny chance to take an unmitigated hit 3 times in a row.

  19. #39
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    with chill of the throne gone, and mastery making it quite easy to get over 90% dodge+parry+miss+block, it's only natural to re-examine the entire argument for those still raiding WotLK content. threatening to close the thread doesn't really seem like the best way to spur such a discussion.
    There are a few hot button topics, one being avoidance vs. EH. The argument has been had. It's all over the site. We don't need to 'spur' a discussion on it until Cata when we can really see how the mechanics/healing has changed. Arguing this isn't going to go anywhere, and that is why Kaze will close the thread. I'm tired of seeing this argument also.
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  20. #40
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    1) block isn't avoidance.
    2) reaching unhittable is valid because that makes your block (the only way to reach unhittable is to stack mastery for more block) function as reliable damage reduction, aka, mitigation, which in turn becomes part of EH. NOT avoidance.
    3) Dodge DR got increased while parries got decreased. Even stacking AVOIDANCE, you won't reach as reliable numbers as stacking stamina, and converting avoidance stats (dodge/parry) to mastery, which, in all intents and purposes, is stacking MORE EH, by making a currently "RNG EH" block chance, into a reliable consistent EH like armor.

    This thread will be closed if people can't properly do research and make their discussions based on them. Making blatant mistakes as those pointed out will cause this thread to be closed because it you're only going to confuse other users about the definitions of words and semantics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
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