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Thread: 4.0.1 - Let's Talk Numbers

  1. #1
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    4.0.1 - Let's Talk Numbers

    First, I apologize in advance if this information is somewhere else already; I could not find so I started this thread.

    Monday night when I logged out, my defensive stats were as follows:
    Armor Class= 263xx
    Defense = 583
    Dodge = 28.6x%
    Parry = 23.8x%
    Block = 18.xx%
    Using the warrior avoidance / unhittable macro from a previous thread, I was at an avoidance level of roughly 82%. Now please correct me if I am wrong, the pre-patch soft cap where diminishing returns kicked in for dodge and parry were 26% and 24% respectively.
    So my first question is, with the patch, did those softcaps change? With the patch applied, I logged in to a dodge rating of 23.xx% and a parry rating of 21.xx%. Block is of course now 30% due to mastery but since the entire mechanic behind block has now changed, you can't really equate that to the previous 18% block I had.
    If the softcaps have changed, what are they now? How can we calculate them? I want to start reforging to bring my mastery up, raising my block and critical block values, but not at the cost of dodge / parry if I am still below the caps on those.
    Second question, is AC still factored in the same as 3.3.x? I follow the AC enchanting method for mitigation using 225AC to cloak, glove reinforcements on my gauntlets etc. Would it be better to change those out now. I noticed the cloak +16 defense enchant was changed to 16 dodge. Also the Hodir shoulder enchant was changed to dodge and sta, which probably makes it better now than the sta/res enchant.

    I am hearing a lot of warriors scream "just stack STA"! I refuse to believe that Blizzard would do that to us. I was not a STA stacker before 4.0.1, I really hope I don't have to be one now.
    (this was written in somewhat haste from my iPhone, when I get home I will edit it to clean it up and add links. I just wanted to get the discussion started.)
    Last edited by Arghoul; 10-14-2010 at 08:52 AM.

  2. #2
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    You should expect a change in your Dodge & Parry numbers, a lot of factors have changed. To name a few:

    - Defense converted to other stats
    - Agility no longer increases Dodge
    - Strength now increases Parry
    - Parry & Dodge share the same DR
    Grymauch, Dwarf Warrior, From Chaos: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rymauch/simple

  3. #3
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    Here is another few things to consider: Bosses still hit hard in ICC. Although our avoidance should help with damage intake over the course of a fight, ICC is still best dealt with using EH.

    They nerfed our armor, so how do we stack EH? Well, there is only one option still available.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
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  4. #4
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    I'll go ahead and add to this thread since it involves warrior tanking numbers. I did a spreadsheet to prove how horrible mastery was for warriors, only to surprise myself in finding that it's not completely useless until you hit the softcap. Only problem is it's hard to pick apart the logs to see how good it is exactly so I had a few questions. Blocked attacks in the in game combat log don't differentiate between blocked and critical blocked as far as I can see, and I haven't had enough experience with combat logs to find out if an attack was blocked or not.

    I have a few questions though...

    1) If you have a 30% chance to block and a 10 % chance to critical block... If your swung on 100 times you will block 30 of them with 10 of those blocks being critical blocks? or you will block 30 of them with 3 of those block being critical blocks.

    If it is the latter then that makes mastery near useless so I'm leaning towards the former.

    2) The change to warrior mastery increasing crit block to 2.5% isn't reflected in the tooltip? Is it live and the tooltip isn't updated?

    3) If mastery is updated and you gain 2.5% crit block and 1.25% block per a point, does that mean that mastery has a softcap for us when your chance to critical block meets/exceeds your chance to block? Basically all blocks would be critical blocks unless you have shield block active, meaning 66+% of the time (shield block not active) you gain 1.25% block and crit block while fighting and less than 33% of the time you gain just 2.5% crit block with shield block up. Once you pass this softcap mastery's value would be diminished.

    4) The base naked mastery for all characters is 8 (not mastery rating but mastery points), that would mean the base block chance is 20% + 10% from mastery, and the base critical block chance is 20% if the 2.5% chance is live but not reflected on the tooltip. With hold the line buff active this instantly puts you at a this soft cap value, and the overall value of stacking mastery is severly diminished?

  5. #5
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    1) If you have a 30% chance to block and a 10 % chance to critical block... If your swung on 100 times you will block 30 of them with 10 of those blocks being critical blocks? or you will block 30 of them with 3 of those block being critical blocks.
    This one is easy and doesn't require me to be in game. If you have a 10% chance to critical block, then it would be 3 out of 100 (as you only block 30 times).

    Now keep in mind that this isn't guaranteed. You could block 50 times out of 100, or could block 20 times out of 100, it's still based on a random system. Also, you could critically block 10 times out of 30 blocks, or 1 time out of 30 blocks.

    For the other answers I would have to be in game to have a look at the tooltips.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
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  6. #6
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    If that's the case then mastery always results in you taking more damage and needs to be buffed further.

  7. #7
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    No, mastery results in you taking less damage if you don't dodge/parry the hit.

    This has to do with the combat table which is too lengthy for me to post here.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
    http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/v...ellvarsig3.jpg

  8. #8
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    The way I understand it for the combat table, dodge / parry / miss / block are all on the same roll. So while yes mastery results in you taking less damage if you block, sacrificing avoidance to do so yields effectively .25% increase in a successful roll in your favor on the attack table... but at the expense of 70% more damage taken in most cases. If you look at an attack roll spreadsheet and figure out the avoidance loss you take in order to gain mastery, you won't see an overall gain for quite some time. I checked all values of mastery up to 30 with the corresponding loss in avoidance needed to get that high... and I took less overall damage with the standard 8 mastery and no reforging.

  9. #9
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    Just to add to my post... in the world of WotLK I could see a justification for mastery stacking in that it results in less 100% damage hits if you do so. This would spread the damage out more but cause an overall increase in the damage you take.

    In the world of cataclysm were tanks aren't in danger every gcd of dieing supposedly, mastery is severely under-tuned it seems.

  10. #10
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    Avoidance has always been the way to "take less damage overall".
    I don't forsee this changing with the addition of Mastery.

    The only thing that really changes is reaching unhittable is actually a significant reduction in damage intake. This has less to do with Avoidance/Mastery and more to do with the changes to blocking mechanics. But I still think it's something to keep in mind. If sacrificing a small amount of avoidance allows you to reach unhittable via Mastery, that would likely be worth the change.

    You might take "more damage overall" - but your worst case scenario increases hugenormously (basically at least 30%) - which is what good tanks are gearing for in the first place.
    Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andenthal View Post
    You might take "more damage overall" - but your worst case scenario increases hugenormously (basically at least 30%) - which is what good tanks are gearing for in the first place.
    Basically avoidance becomes EH weee. Seriously I would drop armor/stam as long as it was a viable amount to become unhittable. An assured 30% damage reduction at the least is huge. No numbers on this atm(and I mean what would be acceptable to sacrifice for this) but basically once you are unhittable that avoidance ends up being a EH stat rather than being a simple mitagation stat. All because it becomes a sure thing rather than a chance, sadly once cata is released we will once again be no where near the cap so don't get used to it =P.
    He who is afraid to lose will never win.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironsides View Post
    Basically avoidance becomes EH weee. Seriously I would drop armor/stam as long as it was a viable amount to become unhittable.
    Avoidance can never be calculated as Effective Health. Avoidance is never a sure thing. Technically speaking, mitigation - not Avoidance - becomes EH - but we ALWAYS factor mitigation in EH calculations. It's just that you gain a new form of mitigation when reaching block cap.

    EH is how much damage you take in a worst case. Worst case scenario is you do not Miss/Dodge/Parry/Block. If you are block capped, then obviously, worst case scenario is that you do not Miss/Dodge/Parry. When reaching block cap, you can calculate blocked attacks as part of EH, since they are garaunteed to happen (or rather that a regular hit is gauranteed NOT to happen). This was the case with Paladin tanks pre-ICC as they could easily reach block cap, and thier SBV value was calculated as part of their EH.

    Today, block capping means a flat 30% redux on damage after other armor/stance/etc are calculated. It's the same as before, just with tweaked numbers.

    Also, Zarko (I think it was Zarko) was putting together gear sets from data-mined and available gear on the Cata beta realm. Pallies are able to reach block cap without too much sacrifice with Tier 11 gear. Warriors were not far off. In his example, I think he used mostly all Mastery sockets, and zero reforging. Paladins were able to 94.5% hit from the combat table (out of an assumed 102.4%).

    check his work out here
    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...26401591&sid=1
    Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironsides View Post
    Basically avoidance becomes EH weee. Seriously I would drop armor/stam as long as it was a viable amount to become unhittable. An assured 30% damage reduction at the least is huge.
    Uhhh casters still shoot u, might wanna re-think that stam dropping lawl

  14. #14
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    Is there a good place to find what the new caps and stats to shoot for as a Prot Warrior post 4.0?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by vincebyron View Post
    Is there a good place to find what the new caps and stats to shoot for as a Prot Warrior post 4.0?
    Same as it's always been.
    Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

  16. #16
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    - Agility no longer increases Dodge
    Agility no longer increases armor, this is correct, but I'm unable to find any info about dodge. Proof link needed.

  17. #17
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    This is an old argument.

    Bottom line, something you can put on you gear that you always will have when you need it (armor/stamina) is greater than something that happens randomly by chance (avoidance).

    Blizzard knows Avoidance is powerful and they will only let us have so much.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ericoze View Post
    Agility no longer increases armor, this is correct, but I'm unable to find any info about dodge. Proof link needed.
    If you're referencing Agility no longer granting Dodge, it's easy enough to test in game without any swapping of gear.
    Find your local neighborhood Paladin and have him give you Blessing of Kings. Your chance to Dodge won't change.
    Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

  19. #19
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    So, this is an undocumented change? this can be a bug (with a tooltip)

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ericoze View Post
    So, this is an undocumented change? this can be a bug (with a tooltip)
    Many changes were "undocumented" (if you're by undocumented you're meaning that they were never officially announced by Blizzard).

    It has been verified by players on the Beta realm. It may be a bug (doubtful), but it is not a tooltip error.
    Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

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