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Thread: So we should use slow weapons now?

  1. #21
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    I'm gonna save up my honor for a wrathful weapon. Going for the claw just to see what my 25 man says when they notice their tank is not only wearing a PVP shield now, but a claw too.

  2. #22
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    Ugh, the only slow 1H weapons I have are agility weapons :P

  3. #23
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    Got the 1800 rating 2.6speed 1hand mace 2 days ago.
    Definately an improvement over my old 1.6 weapon.

  4. #24
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    Same here I went with the sword equivelant, its working out great. Now I'm just debating wether to use the PVP shield or not.....

  5. #25
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    I've been wondering the same in terms of the pvp shield vs. heroic lootship 10 shield....

  6. #26
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    just did some quick testing no way the sample area you need to comfirm this but i used the wep last word and bloodvenom blade so a 1.8 speed wep vs a 2.6 speed wep

    last word did 406 rend dmg while bloodvenom did 521 rend dmg
    last word did avg 1549 deva dmg while bloodvenom did 1683 dmg

    i just sacled rend dmg sens it will allways hit the same and is easy to do the math on

    so with full stack of veng for me rend on last word dose about 660.3 dmg and bloodvenom blade will do about 892.5 dmg

    i am by no means really good at math but it looks to me that warrior will be talking the slowest wep we can get to put out alot more threat for the little survivle loss we get

  7. #27
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    Yeah, I picked up the PVP mace (it looked cooler IMO) and ilvl270 shield. The slower weapon is much better for threat than my old tanking weapon (it's a tier up in ilvl too, so that helps). I find it sort of funny that the end of wrath sees us back where we were in BC for a long time, where PVP shields (and other items in BC) were perfectly suitable and sometimes superior for tanking than much of the PVE gear.

    Ah nostolgia...

  8. #28
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    Yeah I'm using Gutbuster HC as my weapon of choice, lots of stam on it which is nice. Have we got any info on tanking weapons for Cata? do they still exist or are we moving to a DK style of thing and grapping the DPS weapons?

    I really want some slow one handed Polearms for tanks, you know it makes sense!

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Yeah I'm using Gutbuster HC as my weapon of choice, lots of stam on it which is nice. Have we got any info on tanking weapons for Cata? do they still exist or are we moving to a DK style of thing and grapping the DPS weapons?
    There are some craftable blue weapons that have tanking stats, such as parry, dodge, and ofc mastery in the blacksmithing list. I've also spied [Mace of Acrid Death] my little eye on mmo-champions web site, of the few pieces that have been reported to drop from Cataclysm raid bosses. So my guess is that we'll still be seeing tanking stats on our weapons, but they will all be slow weapons. Notice the 2.60 weapon speed?

    Someone asked about experiences with the wrathful cleaver? I bought it last night and so far it seems all very positive. Put a +30 stamina gem on it, along with blade ward and my threat seems to have improved nicely. Single target was never an issue ofc, but my AoE threat seems to be much better, getting higher numbers, much faster. I still need a fresh lockdown to compare logs against my old weapon [Last Word] but at least on the surface now, seems like was worth it.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirloinsteak View Post
    I run with the heroic bloodvenom blade reforged for mastery ... 20k heroic strikes ftw
    Just want to throw one thing around... both HS and cleave are based on AP. On AP only.
    so those have nothing to do whether your weapon is slow or fast..
    the only two spells left based on weapon damage are devastate and rend.

    So for raid boss situations, the (fast) tanking weapons are still better simply because of their defensive stats. you don't spam devastate, you just do it and the beginning of the fight to put 3 stacks of sunders up, and then during fight ro refresh them, but that's it. And rend isn't really used for most bossfights either (well, maybe LK P1 offtank combined with blood and thunder for the ghouls) - and even If you use it, it's not exatly crucial for keeping threat - compared to those 40k+ SS and 15k+ HS crits. :P

    So for now, just stick with a quick tanking weapon and have your slow one in your backpack whenever it comes around with AoE tanking, because rend+B&T+slow weapon DOES actually make quite a difference in (AoE-)threat.

  11. #31
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    You sort of missed the issue look at the threat table below it's the damage the weapon does that creates the threat on most of our moves. Look at the average dps of a tank weapon look at the average dps on a dps weapon ... a tank weapon is never therefore going to do the damage a dps weapon does .. therefore it produces less threat.

    (Note: All values verified build 4.0.1 (13164))
    *Battle Shout ______________________ 20 (modified) + 5*Rage Gained (not modified) (total split)
    Blood Craze_________________________ 0.50*Healing
    Cleave _____________________________ damage + 30 (split)
    *Commanding Shout __________________ 68 (modified) + 5*Rage Gained (not modified) (total split)
    Concussion Blow ____________________ 2.00 * damage
    Demoralising Shout _________________ 41.6 (split)
    Devastate __________________________ damage + 315 + 5% of AP
    Enrage (Bastion of Defense)_________ 1
    Heroic Strike ______________________ damage + 28
    Heroic Throw _______________________ 1.50 x damage
    Rage Gain (Shield Spec/ZerkRage)_____ 5 per rage (stance modifier is not applied)
    Rend _______________________________ damage only
    Revenge ____________________________ damage + 7
    Shield Bash ________________________ 60
    Shield Slam ________________________ 1.30*damage + 231
    Shockwave __________________________ damage only
    Slam _______________________________ damage + 100
    Spell Reflect ______________________ damage only (only for spells aimed at you)
    Social Aggro _______________________ 0
    Sunder Armour ______________________ 395 + 5% AP
    Thunder Clap _______________________ damage only
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo
    [..] it's the damage the weapon does that creates the threat on most of our moves.
    Are you seriously reading "weapon damage" where there is only "damage" ?

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larisha View Post
    you don't spam devastate, you just do it and the beginning of the fight to put 3 stacks of sunders up, and then during fight ro refresh them, but that's it.
    I recognise your point and agree with most of what you say except I feel that you are unfairly playing down the value of devastate. Devastate has a +20% crit rate (sword and board + prime glyph), no cooldown, a chance to proc a shield slam and a bonus threat mod. It's used at the critical opening part of the fight where threat is most likely to be an issue and subsequently we should be looking to use it on any global when our higher threat abilities are on cooldown. So while it's true to say that it shouldn't be spammed, I think it's disingenuous to dismiss it.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yataze View Post
    Are you seriously reading "weapon damage" where there is only "damage" ?
    Did you seriously fail to notice that the swing speeds for most of our threat moves are normalized to a GCD for example

    http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=78/heroic-strike
    http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=845
    http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=6572

    So unless your going to stack haste as a tank having a 1.5 weapon speed but only being able to heroic strike every 3 seconds for example isnt really going to help is it.

    So long as the weapon is below 3sec or your reduced haste version of it you have on your character sheet for heroic strike example it really doesnt matter does it :=)

    And under these conditions of set swing GCD WEAPON DAMAGE IS ALL THAT MATTERS.

    EDIT: So for exact clarity pre cata you could for example heroic strike every weapon swing (the reason for a fast weapon) ... in cata heroic strike rate is governed by it's own GCD fast weapon has no advantage so long as its within the GCD time. And it's the same for most of our attacks.
    Last edited by uglybbtoo; 10-26-2010 at 07:26 AM.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  15. #35
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    Can you two not drag this thread into a bickering match. Larisha was totally correct to point out that the majority of our strikes are not based on weapon damage. The base damage for all our attacks other than Devastate and Rend is derived from attack power. It's no great shame to have missed this, as it is a change amongst many other changes in the way things work.

    To summarise:
    - Devastate and Rend benefit from the hardest hitting weapon (which typically means slow 1 handers)
    - All other attacks are based on attack power (which comes from Strength and from Vengeance)
    - There is no direct benefit from using a fast weapon (which is a change, as fast weapon used to mean more heroic strikes)
    - There are currently no ideal weapons (Slow 1 handers with 'tank' stats and Strength) ....did Last Word just get good?

  16. #36
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    Wasn't sure wether to start a new thread or not but it sort of fit's here. Anyone on beta actually know if there are such things as tank weapons in cata release?

    With reforging and the change to our talents I sort of figured there really isn't much point to tanking weapons and was figuring they would sort of just make a 1H melee weapon.

    I did a quick google but couldn't find anything that stuck out.

    Edit: I guess what I am saying is dodge/parry 40% reforgable so any tank weapon could sort of be made into a dps weapon anyhow if you get my drift and for us we could reforge hit/haste/crit/expertise to dodge or parry as required. ZOMG I can see pug issues :-)
    Last edited by uglybbtoo; 10-26-2010 at 08:43 AM.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  17. #37
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    Last question for the night has anyone got a black bruise (http://www.wowhead.com/item=50035) would really like to know what it does on a heroic dummy in 4.01.
    Last edited by Kazeyonoma; 10-26-2010 at 10:29 AM.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  18. #38
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    I've cleaned out the thread. answer questions, discuss changes if you'd like, but arguing for the sake of arguing is stupid.

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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    Anyone on beta actually know if there are such things as tank weapons in cata release?
    There are:
    - Wowhead has some
    - MMO-Champ has an epic

    If you look at the first link, you'll see a bunch of viable blue weapons that have stats like mastery and hit... I expect they are intended to be suitable (if not optimal) for tanks as well as dps. The number of weapons with specific tank stats (dodge, parry) is a lot fewer. I am totally going to be tanking with the rolling pin.
    Last edited by swelt; 10-26-2010 at 11:47 AM.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by swelt View Post
    There are:
    - Wowhead has some
    - MMO-Champ has an epic

    If you look at the first link, you'll see a bunch of viable blue weapons that have stats like mastery and hit... I expect they are intended to be suitable (if not optimal) for tanks as well as dps. The number of weapons with specific tank stats (dodge, parry) is a lot fewer. I am totally going to be tanking with the rolling pin.
    horray, an epic weapon with pure tanking stats (even though mastery is also tanking stat - block to be precise), I haven't seen that yet.

    and I totally agree. I always loved cookie's tenderizer, I think I still got the classic one somewhere on my bank. and 2.8 is some sexy speed for devastates - since every (!) other 333/346 weapon is only 2.6. and the hit can be reforged to dodge or parry as well - depending how important it will be. so that's a really nice weapon.

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