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Thread: 4.0.1 Threat Values for Warriors?

  1. #21
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    From MMO today:
    Arms
    • Rend base damage has been increased by 50%.

    Does this change the value of Rend+Blood and Thunder in any way for tanking?
    Personally i still find BnT to be extremely bad compared to the alternatives, but i'm not home atm so i can't really test it myself.

    Quick personal theory:
    if the values on MMO are correct and Rend damage is calculated as "Wounds the target causing them to bleed for 421.96 damage plus an additional [ 8.57% of MWS * AP + 60% of MWB + 60% of mwb ] (based on weapon damage) over 15 sec.", said buff only increased the damage by 211damage roughly over 15seconds, making each tick still suck.

  2. #22
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    Sooo Cleave being 'split'...

    Assuming I have Cleave glyph - does that mean that you only get 1/3 of the threat on each mob despite the actual damage done?

  3. #23
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    @Brage: It changes nearly nothing, you need to be tanking several mobs for roughly 30+ seconds for BnT to be worth it over Devastate.

    @Agmar: It means that you get threat based on damage (regardless of the amount of targets it hits) and then the extra threat split over all targets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
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  4. #24
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    I wouldn't mind them tweaking thunderclap really over rend : /
    Marking targets, coordinating CC, and *most importantly*, pulling responsibly so that 9 elites didn't rush us and wipe the party, this Is something I have missed since nov 08.

  5. #25
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    I was thinking earlier today;
    If you made a macro that made you switch to a 2hander, apply Rend, then switch back to sword 'n board in 3 clicks ofcourse, would that actually make Rend viable?
    I'm assuming that the Rend being spread around would still have it's damage based on the initial one, the one which was applied with a slow 2hander.

  6. #26
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    The loss in GCD is not worth it. You would still need multiple mobs to be around for an extended period of time to make Rend viable in any way, and at that point AoE moves like TC & SW are always on CD, making the rend meaningless
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
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  7. #27
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    Yeah my PoV aswell. I'd just love for BnT to be worth the 2 talent points

    Guess it needs a formula rewrite.

  8. #28
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    At the moment I'm secretly hoping they will eventually change it to "Your Thunder Clap now also has a 50/100% chance to apply Rend", because that would make it on par (single target) with Devastate, while at the same time give you the nice AoE DoT without the GCD loss like the old talent was (you know, the buggy consecrate one :P)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
    Warlords of Draenor One Minute Field Guides

  9. #29
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    That could work since thunderclap on it's own does fuuk all threat when you have a few mobs on you, it's quite pittyful, then combine it with cleave on a 3 sec cd and it's arggggg.
    Marking targets, coordinating CC, and *most importantly*, pulling responsibly so that 9 elites didn't rush us and wipe the party, this Is something I have missed since nov 08.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    You would still need multiple mobs to be around for an extended period of time to make Rend viable in any way
    I'm not sure, if I get your point here, but Thunder Clap resetts the duration of Rend regardless of any mobs being around. Even on Singletarget, TClap reapplies Rend. But haven't tested, if the dmg is updated with your current values, when you TClap - wouldn't think so.


    Forgot my main idea for the post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Porcell
    Used that Threat addon to do this research.
    Is there a possibility of getting "that" addon into my hands? I don't quite get, which is meant as i believe Satrina's should be out of date right now(?) If there's a modified version working on current 4.0.1 i'd love to have it The link on page 1 was to Satrinas Buff Frames and that surely isn't the add-on in question, is it?
    Last edited by Biehler; 10-18-2010 at 10:14 AM.

  11. #31
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    Here: Threat.zip

  12. #32
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    Great, thank you

    Can't get enough of datamining tools to spend my lonely lonely evenings, hrhr

  13. #33
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    What really bothers me at the moment is that I don't know how to exactly handle the Thunderstruck buff in single target situations. Do you thunderclap before every Shockwave?

    Every time you TC although the TC debuff is already applied it is a TPS loss of course. So the question is:

    What gives you more TPS:

    losing that one GCD which you lose because of TC to buff your shockwave

    or lets say in the worst case a simple Devastate and then shockwave?

    So it is:
    TC + SW(+10%) vs. Devastate + Shockwave?

    My feelings say Devastate+Shockwave is more tps but for some how it feels strange to trigger a nonbuffed SW. It feels like 2 wasted talent points

  14. #34
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    Are you just ignoring the first line of Thunderstruck? It still increases your Rend, Cleave, and TC damage by 6%. That alone would make the talent worth it.

    As for Shockwave, think of it this way. Shockwave has a 20 second cooldown, or 17 seconds when glyphed. You would have to use your Thunderclap on cooldown in order to get a full 3stack for Shockwave, and you are only increasing SW damage by 30%. If you are using TC to keep up Rend, then you will be using TC every 15 seconds and will have a 1-stack of thunderstruck for every SW. If you aren't using BnT, you will be using TC every 30 seconds to keep up the debuff, in which case you will have a 1-stack for one shockwave and a 0-stack for the next.

    Lets say your Shockwave hits for 7500 damage. A 10% buff would be 750 damage, but you have to waste a GCD to get it. That Thunderclap is only going to do like 2000 damage, maybe. So you are gaining a total of 2750 damage in that one GCD by consciously TCing before a shockwave. I would suggest that even a Devastate would be more damage and threat than using a GCD on thunderclap when you don't need to.

    So, IMHO, don't even look at the Thunderstruck buff. I'm not even tracking it. Use TC when you should (either for the Rend, or for the Debuff), and Shockwave when it comes off cooldown. Sometimes you'll get bonus damage out of it, sometimes you won't. Take it as a bonus, and take the 2/2 talent for the 6% damage to Rend, Cleave, and TC.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    @Brage: It changes nearly nothing, you need to be tanking several mobs for roughly 30+ seconds for BnT to be worth it over Devastate.
    I'm not sure this is accurate.

    Just doing my own napkin math using logs that are available.
    This is the one I've been using, since it was one of the first full public runs after the patch
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/x...9mw/details/4/
    On the armory, that Warrior has 2 prot specs. One looks like it's for bosses, the other purely for trash. Trash spec has BnT and Thunderstruck, the other does not. Safe to assume he uses Rend while tanking trash.
    (Edit: if you check the date, this was before the above formentioned buff to Rend also).

    Average Devastate is 4888 (over the whole instance)
    Average Rend tick is 903.

    Rend only needs to do ~5.5 ticks to do equal damage to Devastate (16.5 secs) on a single mob. Since we can't have fractions of a tick, we round up to 6 ticks over 18 secs. For each mob, you obviously divide that number by the number of mobs. When tanking 4 mobs, Rend only needs to tick twice (rounded up again) on each mob to do more damage in that GCD than Devastate would have done. Plus you have the benefit of that damage/threat being spread around all mobs, and not just 1.

    When you figure in an AE scenario, you're going to be Thunder Clapping on cooldown anyway, you're only using 1 GCD to have rend up the entire pull. With only 2 mobs in the pull using Rend does more damage than Devastate. (Assuming you're going to be using TC anyway - if you won't be using TC, then obviously you wouldn't be using Rend.) Also have to assume that the pull last long enough for Rend to tick 3 times on each mob.

    If you look at trash pulls for the above WoL log, you'll see that Rend did slightly more damage than Cleave for that tank, just behind Shockwave.

    For single target it gets trickier. You'll likely only get 4 ticks of Rend before you have to refresh via TC. So you have to calculate if 4 ticks of Rend + TC does more than 1 Devastate.

    Using the log above:
    Average Rend - 903
    Average TC - 1168
    Average Devastate - 4888

    (903*4) + 1168 = 4780

    For single targets it's better to not use Rend at all. 4 ticks of Rend + TC refresh, or 5 ticks of Rend is still not more damage than using the GCD for Devastate. For AE tanking the only real variable is how long the mobs stay alive. If they live longer than ~20 secs, it's more damage to use Rend (again assuming you'll be using TC regardless). If they don't live that long it's not worth it - but then again using any abilities in a 15 sec pull likely don't matter that much.
    Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Porcell View Post
    Are you just ignoring the first line of Thunderstruck? It still increases your Rend, Cleave, and TC damage by 6%. That alone would make the talent worth it.
    No, not at all. As you can read I was only concerned about single target situation and as we all know we don't use cleave while single targeting. 6% more TC damage in a single target fight is also not very significant and as far as I know rend isn't worth the GCD compared to Devastate. So the problem was only the thunderstruck buff.


    Quote Originally Posted by Porcell View Post
    Lets say your Shockwave hits for 7500 damage. A 10% buff would be 750 damage, but you have to waste a GCD to get it. That Thunderclap is only going to do like 2000 damage, maybe. So you are gaining a total of 2750 damage in that one GCD by consciously TCing before a shockwave. I would suggest that even a Devastate would be more damage and threat than using a GCD on thunderclap when you don't need to.
    Ok that's a very good example that shows it is not worth to buff yourself before every SW in a single target situation. So the conclusion is that I won't include this talent in my single target talent tree. I think I'll put these points into Safeguard.

  17. #37
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    @ Andenthal:
    I'm having abit of trouble with that log.
    That warrior only cleaved 1 more time than he did Shockwave in the whole raid? With the difference in CD being 14 seconds (assuming SW is glyphed) that seems highly unlikely.

    Only 34 Shockwaves over 2 hours?

    I'm sorry but to me it seems as if those numbers are abit flawed, attacks are either missing from the log or that warrior didn't do his optimal. With cleave/shockwave used whenever possible, we'd see higher numbers for sure.
    Last edited by Brage; 10-19-2010 at 01:20 AM.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andenthal View Post
    For single target it gets trickier. You'll likely only get 4 ticks of Rend before you have to refresh via TC. So you have to calculate if 4 ticks of Rend + TC does more than 1 Devastate.

    Using the log above:
    Average Rend - 903
    Average TC - 1168
    Average Devastate - 4888

    (903*4) + 1168 = 4780

    For single targets it's better to not use Rend at all. 4 ticks of Rend + TC refresh, or 5 ticks of Rend is still not more damage than using the GCD for Devastate.
    But you have to use TC every ~26-30sec anyway.

    So you must compare 2 cycles, that would be 8 Rend-ticks + 2 TC vs 1 Devastate + 1 TC:
    903*8 + 1168*2 = 9560
    4888 + 1168 = 6056


    If you have to apply TC anyway, this could be a good option.

  19. #39
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    Guys, you may just have restored my faith in BnT. Especially if those numbers were pre-hotfix. You could add another ~200damage to the rend ticks.

  20. #40
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    But you should also take the opportunity costs into consideration since this two talent points could be spend for other things, e.g. Incite, Shield Spec or Hold The Line ...

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