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Thread: Understanding Fury in 4.0

  1. #141
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    what is the cap for haste. right now i am at the hit rating cap and expercites cap and i would like to know the haste cap thx

  2. #142
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    there isn't one.

    |TGM UI |Fury Warrior Guide | How To Use Landsoul's Spreadsheet| The Numbers Game |
    "I am an elitist; I will never accept mediocrity and I openly show no respect for stupidity"


  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thegreatme View Post
    Hit/haste:

    I still fail to see why people are saying hit is better than haste. for a 1% increase of either stat you get a 1% net increase of attacks landing, resulting in the same DPS gain, and the same rage gain.

    I could easily be missing something here, and if this is indeed the case, let me know.
    hits per second formula is (1/(wpnspd/(1+haste%*haste%)))*(1-(0,24-hit%)
    if i haven't made any mistake, you get more benefit (= hits per second) out of every point of hit before the hardcap, than out of haste.
    the point is that you don't get a 1% increase per 1% more stat. (and even if it was so, hit would be better because of the better conversion)
    maybe i look a little bit more in-depth into it tomorrow, but at the moment i'm not really able to explain why (and how) the difference really developes... (and even if there maybe is a point where haste outweighs hit before the hardcap)

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thegreatme View Post
    right now in order to fill the GCD table and have 100% HSF you would need to be generating 23.33 rage per second. we should be stacking haste until we hit that point, and after that point we should itemize for crit and maybe even mastery
    Maybe I am missing something obvious but how do you calculate your rage per second generation?

  5. #145
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    Any point going for pure haste gems ? i suffer from huge ragestavasion

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrelnut View Post
    Maybe I am missing something obvious but how do you calculate your rage per second generation?
    you run up to a target dummy with just your MH on and hit it, see how much rage you get and then write that down, then put your OH on and do it again, then subtract the amount your MH gives from the total rage gained to see how much your OH gives.


    MATH TIME!


    Because I was curious to see how much haste would be required in order to reach this "magical" 23.333 rage per second value, I started running the numbers:

    MH: 3.7speed: 24 rage per hit
    OH: 3.6speed: 11 rage per hit

    24/(3.7(1-x))+11/(3.6(1-x))=23.333


    if you know anything about adding fractions, you know this is the part where things get messy.



    24(3.6(1-x))/(3.6(1-x))(3.7(1-x)) + 11(3.7(1-x))/(3.7(1-x)) (3.6(1-x))=23.333


    let's simplify that denominator:
    remember FOIL from 9th grade algebra? it's back.
    (3.6(1-x))(3.7(1-x))=13.32-26.64x+13.32x^2

    once you also simplify the numerator you have this:
    (127.1-127x) / (13.32-26.64x+13.32x^2) = 23.333

    time to start moving things around/simplifying so we can solve for x:
    127.1-127.1x = 310.7556-621.5112x+310.7556x^2

    -183.6556 = 494.4112x + 310.7556x^2

    finally, you simplify it to look like this:

    310.7556x^2+494.4112x+183.6556= 0

    remember the quadratic formula from 9th grade algebra? yup, it's back too.

    once you do that you get
    x= -1
    x= -0.590996912


    what this means is that if you have a 3.7 speed MH and a 3.6 OH, you need to have basically 60% haste in order to have enough rage generation to be able to completely fill the GCD table, and have 100% HSF



    NOTES:
    • this math doesn't account for berserker rage or battle shout usage
    • the actual value of necessary max rage generation will be lower than 23.333 rage per second because of gaps in slam and RB usage.
    • I am not entirely sure why I received a negative value for x when I used the quadratic formula, but it could be do to an error in my calculations at some point in the process
    • Flurry uptimes are not accounted for
    Last edited by Thegreatme; 10-18-2010 at 03:38 PM.

    |TGM UI |Fury Warrior Guide | How To Use Landsoul's Spreadsheet| The Numbers Game |
    "I am an elitist; I will never accept mediocrity and I openly show no respect for stupidity"


  7. #147
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    Doesn't crit still affect the amount of rage generated? Or did you boil that into the average rage/hit?

    Here's a simpler process for the maths:
    Code:
    24/(3.7*(1-x)) + 11/(3.6*(1-x)) = 23.33
    => (24 * 3.6 + 11 * 3.7)/(3.6*3.7*(1-x)) = 23.33
    => 127.1/(13.32*(1-x)) = 23.33
    => 9.54/(1-x) = 23.33
    => 1-x = 0.4089
    => x = 0.591

  8. #148
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    crit no longer is a variable in rage per hit. it's essentially weapon speed*weapon constant. offhand weapons also have a 0.5 coefficient slapped on

    |TGM UI |Fury Warrior Guide | How To Use Landsoul's Spreadsheet| The Numbers Game |
    "I am an elitist; I will never accept mediocrity and I openly show no respect for stupidity"


  9. #149
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    Can you cite that? I haven't been keeping up with the EJ theorycrafting (wayyy behind on my EJ thread reading), so I haven't seen any testing there, but based off the announcements blizzard has made (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...m-Rage-Changes! for example), it seems like crit should still be a factor.

  10. #150
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    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...pageNo=2&sid=1

    first GC post on that page, second paragraph.

    |TGM UI |Fury Warrior Guide | How To Use Landsoul's Spreadsheet| The Numbers Game |
    "I am an elitist; I will never accept mediocrity and I openly show no respect for stupidity"


  11. #151
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    Sweet, thanks. I actually just did some testing myself, and it confirms it.

    This makes the rage calculation sooooo much easier now. We don't have to worry about crits, glancings... it's glorious!

  12. #152
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    Those numbers seem odd to me. Base rage generation with 0 haste and no flurry is 9.75 rage/sec (rounded down a bit for weapon speed). This is 6.5 rage/sec for MH and 3.25 (half) for OH. This is how rage works now, it's 6.5 rage/sec multiplied by weapon speed. Other than the slight rounding there's no need to factor weapon speed in (has anyone tested if you can earn fractional rage which is kept but not displayed?).

    If you need to get to 23.333 rage/sec you'll need to be attacking 23.333 / 9.75 = ~2.4 times faster.

    To attack 2.4 times faster you need 140% haste.

    What have I missed/gotten wrong here?

    Flurry is obviously a big deal here since it's multiplicative with haste rating haste. Same with 10% melee haste buff. Battle Trance is also a big factor in the rage requirements.

    In any case I think the requirement is really more like 17.5 rage/s, accounting for Battle Trance and Shouts. In each 6s:

    2 * BT + 2 * HS + RB => 2 * 20 + 2 * 0.85 * 30 + 20 => 111/6 = 18.5
    Then subtract 30 rage / 30 s for shout, which is 1 rage/s = 17.5
    Last edited by Xodiv; 10-22-2010 at 01:56 AM.

  13. #153
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    How about gemming is full strength now the way to go or is +10 stength +10 hit and +10 strength and +10 haste better for putting in blue and yellow sockets?

    Is Bryntroll, the Bone Arbiter still a good weapon for the MH?

    The two weapons below and Citadel Enforcer's Claymore i have that i can use for OH. Which item combination should i use for getting the expertise cap?

    Ramaladni's Blade of Culling and Blood-Soaked Saronite Stompers

    or

    Quel'Delar, Might of the Faithful and Bone Drake's Enameled Boots

    Is it still worth getting Shadow's Edge or is it a waste of Justice points to buy saronites with it?

    Hope you guys can help me with the questions i have. And nice that you made a video Thegreatme really could use that for the time before cata.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xodiv View Post
    (has anyone tested if you can earn fractional rage which is kept but not displayed?).
    To elaborate on this (I'm at work and can't test this myself for another 8 hours), if you watch your rage generation there are two possibilities:

    You always see the same rage number generated from every MH hit (and every OH hit) -> no fractional rage is kept server-side.

    You mostly see one number, but every Nth hit you see a number that is one higher -> fractional rage is kept.

    With a 3.7 speed weapon you should see a higher number every 20th swing. With a 3.6 speed weapon you should see one every third swing.

  15. #155
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    I remember landsoul making a post on EJ stating that the fractional rage is stored, though I haven't tested it personally.

    |TGM UI |Fury Warrior Guide | How To Use Landsoul's Spreadsheet| The Numbers Game |
    "I am an elitist; I will never accept mediocrity and I openly show no respect for stupidity"


  16. #156
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    I can confirm that fractional rage is stored, based on dummy testing.

  17. #157
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    Thank you very much for testing the fractional rage.

    Well that's easy then, no need to worry about the weapon speed rounding.

    (Average) Rage/sec for fury is then:

    [base] * [rating haste] * [flurry haste] * [buff haste] * [hit chance] =

    9.75 * (1 + haste%/100) * (flurry uptime * 1.25) * 1.1 * hitchance

    I'd have to think a bit about the flurry uptime formula, whether it varies with haste, weaponspeed or just crit chance. Hit chance includes expertise+hit, and the 1.1 is 10% from Improved Icy Talons etc.

  18. #158
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    technically flurry does scale with haste because it reduces the time of the 3 swing period, meaning less time for non-swing attacks to occur. luckily if you accurately account for possible slam usage (51% occurrence every 6s), and assume ~75% raging blow frequency, you can simply determine the 3 swing period and just take that number and add 3 to it because instant attacks/sec ends up being 601/600 attacks per second, which is basically 1.
    Last edited by Thegreatme; 10-18-2010 at 08:40 PM.

    |TGM UI |Fury Warrior Guide | How To Use Landsoul's Spreadsheet| The Numbers Game |
    "I am an elitist; I will never accept mediocrity and I openly show no respect for stupidity"


  19. #159
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    I guess in calculating your 3 swing time (or alternatively flurry charges consumed/sec which is how Landsoul's spreadsheet does it) you have to assume 100% flurry uptime otherwise you end up with a dependency loop.

    Does a missed swing consume a flurry charge?
    Last edited by Xodiv; 10-18-2010 at 11:38 PM.

  20. #160
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    Just kind of reporting in wanna see if this is normal
    Hs hits way higher than Slam and i am ignoring slam unless one of the follwing things happens (i have 65+ rage, my addons dont tell em about slams procs if this isnt the case)
    OR
    Any 10% more haste person is in the raid for me rage gen is no longer an issue i have hardcapped hit and Stacked haste probably to the loss of crit more than people would like.

    Also out of 10 man hardmodes (save LK) http://www.wowhead.com/item=51936 seems Like my best bet (i only do 10 man hardmodes with the new changes to the lockouts so hardmodes 10 man weps are my only options.

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