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Thread: Understanding Fury in 4.0

  1. #161
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    Now, I'm no math wiz, but I do have some logic skills and a lot of time spent regemming and reforging over the last few days. Something that ppl have been flirting with but not quite seeming to outright say in this last page, crit does indeed increase rage generation up to a certain point(infinite flurry), and in fact to a certain earlier point it does so more effectively than haste rating(where 1point of crit rating's effect on flurry uptime=greater haste over time than granted by 1 point of haste including that haste's extra chance to proc flurry minus that haste's chances of eating charges faster- simple right?). I have no idea what those numbers are, but I was wondering if TGM or one of you other mathy folks might want to model that for us through calculation of flurry uptime. 25% haste is quite a bit especially in post 3.x WoW, and I've noticed that going a second or two w/o flurry has been devastating for my rage gen and hence my dps. I've been concentrating on SMF post patch and with the smaller stat pools each push in either direction has had a much more noticible swing on my overall dps. I've been unable to hit cap as SMF w/o sacrificing strength, and str/AP is definitely king so i've been living with it opting to keep str in every slot and get my 24%ish hit rating strictly from reforging and str/hit gems in my blue sockets. I'll be back after tomorrow with some concrete numbers, but thus far, even though a bias towards haste has produced smoother rage gen (as expected) crit has pretty consistently produced a slightly higher dps output. First on my list of things to test tomorrow was incite over war academy, so, glad to see some good things being said to support that decision- especially since HS is already my #1 damage move. I'll leave you with this gem though, fast OH seems to be ~the same dps as slow with RB OH hits not getting the hotfix buff that the MH hits got but provide much smoother rage gen.

  2. #162
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    If anyone's interested:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/v...?s=8305&e=8501

    HC saurfang 25m - so stand still and nuke the orc dummie :P

    I would say that I have enough rage now in 25m (spamming glyphed BR and BS) to do HS + BT + RB, but not enough to use the Slam procs to fill up the GCDs. I am almost hit cap'd so I am guessing I should focus on getting haste up next.

    Unbuffed on a dummy was 9.5k, but in a raid fully buffed it was 17.5k and I am pretty sure I can do better by looking more closely at ragemanagement to use HS more. but meh

    All gear reforged crit > hit, except a ring crit > expertise. All red gems +20 str, yellow +10str +10crit and blue +10str +10hit. Same gear as in armory ( http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...+Templar+Order ), except those changes, so yes HC Fanged Skull and normal DBW with their procs active.

    P.s. as TGM mentioned in the video the rage can be gathered up before a fight, so managed to start fight with some gathered. On bloodqueen I even managed to start almost fully raged.. that is niiiiice but I wonder when they will "fix" that hehe

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkraveR View Post
    How about gemming is full strength now the way to go or is +10 stength +10 hit and +10 strength and +10 haste better for putting in blue and yellow sockets?

    Is Bryntroll, the Bone Arbiter still a good weapon for the MH?

    The two weapons below and Citadel Enforcer's Claymore i have that i can use for OH. Which item combination should i use for getting the expertise cap?

    Ramaladni's Blade of Culling and Blood-Soaked Saronite Stompers

    or

    Quel'Delar, Might of the Faithful and Bone Drake's Enameled Boots

    Is it still worth getting Shadow's Edge or is it a waste of Justice points to buy saronites with it?

    Hope you guys can help me with the questions i have. And nice that you made a video Thegreatme really could use that for the time before cata.
    Nobody wanna answer my questions? Guess i am in the wrong part of the forum maybe.

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkraveR View Post
    Nobody wanna answer my questions? Guess i am in the wrong part of the forum maybe.
    It depends *allot* on your hit and expertise.

    If you at least follow: Exp = 26, Hit as close to 27% as you can, Str > haste > crit , then you can answer this question yourself As in, how much do you need the hit from the claymore and how much do you need the stats from the other two weapons vs Bryntrolls str and proc.

    Shadow's edge has two! red socets and bunch of strength, and more dps.. so it is worth it above what you currently have but if you have access to 25m loot / 10m hc you will want to consider the cost vs gain.

  5. #165
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    Flurry uptime formula is simple, but explaining the probability formulas is beyond me.

    Flurry status can only change on a melee swing, and the chance at any melee swing that flurry is up is the chance that you got a crit three melee swings ago or after (flurry is procced but not consumed by special attacks, so it can be any of the three melee swings or any specials in that time that crit).

    You know your (buffed) crit chance, C.

    You know your total haste from gear and buffs and averaged from procs, H. Well sort of, you don't know how much flurry uptime to add. Mostly 100% is used it seems to make the formula possible without an advanced math degree.

    Your average time between melee swings, T, is (trust me here):



    You need to know your number of specials per second, S. Thegreatme indicated on the previous page it was around 3.25 attacks per 6 seconds, or around 0.54.

    The (average) total number of attacks you do in 3 swing times, N, is 3 normal attacks plus the special attacks:



    It's hard to calculate the chance you got a crit in the last N attacks, but it's easy to calculate the chance you didn't (chance of non-crit N times in a row) and we know the chance you did is 1 minus that. That value is the flurry uptime, F.





    What does this practically mean? The same thing it has always meant. The value of additional crit in increasing flurry chance decreases the more of it you get.

    Conversely, although haste does drop your flurry uptime, it's very slowly. Some rough calculation shows 10% additional haste would drop your flurry uptime by less than 1%.



    This graph shows some values for approximately my gear. The red line assumes my haste is constant and shows the flurry uptime for increasing crit percentages. The blue line assumes my crit is constant, and shows the flurry uptime for various haste percentages.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xodiv View Post
    Flurry uptime formula is simple, but explaining the probability formulas is beyond me.

    Flurry status can only change on a melee swing, and the chance at any melee swing that flurry is up is the chance that you got a crit three melee swings ago or after (flurry is procced but not consumed by special attacks, so it can be any of the three melee swings or any specials in that time that crit).

    You know your (buffed) crit chance, C.

    You know your total haste from gear and buffs and averaged from procs, H. Well sort of, you don't know how much flurry uptime to add. Mostly 100% is used it seems to make the formula possible without an advanced math degree.

    Your average time between melee swings, T, is (trust me here):



    You need to know your number of specials per second, S. Thegreatme indicated on the previous page it was around 3.25 attacks per 6 seconds, or around 0.54.

    The (average) total number of attacks you do in 3 swing times, N, is 3 normal attacks plus the special attacks:



    It's hard to calculate the chance you got a crit in the last N attacks, but it's easy to calculate the chance you didn't (chance of non-crit N times in a row) and we know the chance you did is 1 minus that. That value is the flurry uptime, F.





    What does this practically mean? The same thing it has always meant. The value of additional crit in increasing flurry chance decreases the more of it you get.

    Conversely, although haste does drop your flurry uptime, it's very slowly. Some rough calculation shows 10% additional haste would drop your flurry uptime by less than 1%.



    This graph shows some values for approximately my gear. The red line assumes my haste is constant and shows the flurry uptime for increasing crit percentages. The blue line assumes my crit is constant, and shows the flurry uptime for various haste percentages.

    You just explained in one post everything i didnt understand about wow math

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xodiv View Post
    This graph shows some values for approximately my gear. The red line assumes my haste is constant and shows the flurry uptime for increasing crit percentages. The blue line assumes my crit is constant, and shows the flurry uptime for various haste percentages.
    Extrapolating random points and ignoring all the well thought out information you provided... are you saying that at most levels of currently available gear would it be a good idea to reforge Crit into Haste?

    I have 25 exp and 27% hit, I have the option to reforge some crit into additional haste but don't really know if it would help or hurt me. I am pretty much wondering if all you 'number' people have an answer for that kind of question or would it simply be the best approach to do the reforging, go spend some time on the target dummy and then compare WoL #'s of pre / post reforge changes?

  8. #168
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    The effect of increased haste on flurry uptime is pretty negligible, as it only affects the window of time that instant attacks can occur per 3 swings. the increase in hits/time and increase in rage generation should greatly outweigh the slightly lower flurry uptime associated with haste vs crit.

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  9. #169
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    so does it make sense to gem vor haste instead of strength pure?I'm thinking about this since a couple of days. I think it could be like this because as you already mentioned more hits/time-->more rage-->more abilities/time (or/fight) can be used and this should be better than less rage and less but harder hitting abilities in use.

  10. #170
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    no, you still want to gem str i believe because STR is your baseline damage modifier. All of this discussion is between "rating" type stats that can be reforged.

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  11. #171
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    hmmm but I think we should achieve those 23.33 rage right? (or get even close to it) so stacking haste is the only way to get close to it (after reaching hit hardcap) because I don't think there's any possible gear-combination at level 80 to reach this without gemming.This sounds weird to me because as you said strength is definitly our baseline damage modifier. So I think there's questition of more abilities(because of more rage/time and prefering haste) but weaker or less abilities and hitting harder (by prefering strength).hmmm now I'm confused...^^

    edit: I don't know how this behaves in a raid enviroment (incoming damage more buffs) an how the use of shouts/beserker rage influence those thoughts so in a raid it could be more easy to get enough rage so strength could be better^^
    Last edited by Biocore; 10-19-2010 at 12:00 PM.

  12. #172
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    I can't say for sure so I'll leave it to TGM to respond, but my understanding still is that STR is optimal after reaching caps of hit and expertise because it affects all of your attacks outgoing damage, while haste really only affects your rage gen/white hits.

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  13. #173
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    Yep. However, STR and Crit have much the same effect on your overall DPS. Strength isn't better than other stats due to superior mechanics or anything; it's just more effective for the equivalent ilevel points.

  14. #174
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    but the rage gen changed that way that we are pretty depending on white hits.so even if we got 10k strength or so its useless if we got no rage or problems to get our rage to use our abilities fluently.so maybe a mixture might be the way to go but this means there has to be a haste cap an as TGM said there isn't really one (if I don't missunderstood him).Maybe my thoughts are to complicated and there is a simple answer but I tested stacking/gemming haste after hit hardcap and I got that feeling it isnt that bad.

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiz98 View Post
    Yep. However, STR and Crit have much the same effect on your overall DPS. Strength isn't better than other stats due to superior mechanics or anything; it's just more effective for the equivalent ilevel points.
    Actually, I thought Strength was better due to the fact that you get 5% strength with Plate Specialization, which means Strength gets a bonus if you have more of it.

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  16. #176
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    Well, it's never really an apples to apples comparison: STR has Plate Spec, Crit has its Deep Wounds damage and whatnot. These just change the potency of the stats though, and not the interactions. Stacking more crit makes STR more powerful for you, and likewise, stacking more STR makes crit more powerful for you, etc.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thegreatme View Post
    The effect of increased haste on flurry uptime is pretty negligible, as it only affects the window of time that instant attacks can occur per 3 swings. the increase in hits/time and increase in rage generation should greatly outweigh the slightly lower flurry uptime associated with haste vs crit.
    In fact, if it doesn't drop it past the point where you can hit X number of globals (which, as titan's grip, is usually 2), then it doesn't actually have any affect on flurry uptime. It IS possible to get enough haste so that you'll have a drop in your globals/3 swings count, but it's pretty high...it also probably depends on your latency.

    Which basically means that the smooth curve shown above isn't really accurate...it's a step function (unless you rage starve yourself and can't hit two specials in).

    Hmm...actually...heroic strike is off the GCD...and suddenly it's all sorts of tricky again...bleh.
    Last edited by Ion; 10-19-2010 at 03:55 PM. Reason: I may be an idiot...dammit.

  18. #178
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    Thinking about maximizing Battle Trance. You want to use Battle Trance for Heroic Strike (or BT I guess), and not for Raging Blow.

    Thus, you always want to HS after a BT. I don't know if there is a lag to Battle Trance proccing, there probably is; I will try to test this.

    But, you don't want to BT if you won't have enough rage for HS.

    Assuming you had guaranteed enough rage the ideal rotation would be:

    BT -> HS ==> RB ==> BT -> HS ==> (BSSlam/Shout)

    I.e., you don't sync up HS with BT at all, and you don't macro it in. You hit it after BT and before RB or BSSlam.

    In fact if you are macroing, the best approach is more likely to be to Macro SS in with everything else except BT, and have the rotation be:

    BT ==> SS+RB ==> BT ==> SS+(BSSlam/Shout/Sunder/etc.)

    Or if like me you have HS on a button, hit BT on its own, then when the other attack is up hit HS+OtherAbility in quick succession. This will result in best use of Battle Trance and leave you raged starved for RB and BSSlam rather than HS or BT.

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrelnut View Post
    Extrapolating random points and ignoring all the well thought out information you provided... are you saying that at most levels of currently available gear would it be a good idea to reforge Crit into Haste?
    I don't have a good enough idea of how much missing/dodging hurts DPS, but I believe the best approach is still to cap hit and expertise via reforging, and then to reforge crit into haste until you can at least HS every cooldown. Flurry uptime is still very important, I would not want to drop below 30% buffed crit, but stacking crit for diminishing flurry uptime returns is definitely a poor idea.

    TL;DR: I reforged all of my crit into expertise and haste until about 24% haste and 31% crit and have had reasonable results.

    Here is a log from Sunday on Heroic Saurfang 25. I didn't nail my rotation and I only got Heroic DBW on that fight so my trinkets were Herkuml and normal WFS.

    Interestingly from that it shows only 3 Battle Trance procs from 50 Bloodthirst attacks instead of 7-8. Either I got unlucky, the proc rate is wrong, or Battle Trance can proc and be consumed server-side without making it to the client. It might be an artifact of the spell queue.
    Last edited by Xodiv; 10-19-2010 at 09:34 PM.

  20. #180
    I've researched quite a bit and have not found a clear answer on what fury warriors should be gemming in their yellow sockets. I have mostly heard +10str +10haste or +10str +10crit. So TGM or any other elitist on this forum, which is better at the present moment?

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