Understanding Fury in 4.0

[DiabloRock]

So where are we raid-wise? I used to go to ICC because I could pull my weight in dps; I don't want to go now just because a buddy is willing to have the other classes carry the silly nerfed fury warrior.
And with practically every talent we have given a Rage cost of 30, rage awareness is definitely a must. I kinda feel like the rage costs need to be jacked down a little, but maybe that's just me pining for the good old days of "If it procs, pop it; if it's off CD, pop it; if you have extra rage, pop something else, and then pop it again for good measure." Though I admit, it feels weird to wait for a BT or RB and leave my warrior to his own auto-attack devices for a few seconds. I feel like that HS button calls my name.....

[shiz98]

I'm modelling that RB bonus by calculating a % increase in enrage uptime, and multiplying that by a base RB DPS number to get the resulting DPS increase. Unfortunately, I need to get to class myself and can't finish it till later; I'll post my equations as soon as I've got something presentable.

[Krenian]

Preliminary reports from all over are coming in and the prognosis is not good.

We've lost DPS. That's something we're going to have to deal with. The problem is that we lost a LOT of dps.

I'm hearing reports between 2k to 8k dps has been lost in some fights. Now, if this is because the rotation is new, everything is different and that we're still getting used to the whole kit and kaboodle, I don't know. But the fact that we lost a lot of AP as well as the fact that we're missing a skill to hit, Slam is too expensive for the damage it does for TG, the loss of Deep Wounds and the gist of it: Losing ArP which was so beneficial to us, is leaving us really really low on most charts.

Right now, casters are doing well. Melee are all suffering from the loss of ArP. That stat was a damaging stat as too many melee relied on it. At this point now, we're going to have to swallow our pill and come back to reality and realize that ArP really covered a lot of our weakness. That and the fact that one of our skills is replacing Whirlwind and it isn't hitting more than one person and isn't 100% active, and we're going to be losing a lot of our power dps.

Compound this with the change to Cleave that it has a 3 second cooldown, and our AoE is affected by a severe amount.

Those of us who can stay the course and wait for Cataclysm to come in will potentially be rewarded (However from what I've been hearing from the beta forums, Fury isn't doing much better right now either.)

All and all, it's going to be a tough two months to adjust. Better hold on to your seat.

[Kazeyonoma]

by simply spec'ing into fury, you gain precision as part of "fury spec" you have 3/3 precision aka 3% hit right off the bat Kren.

[Krenian]

by simply spec'ing into fury, you gain precision as part of "fury spec" you have 3/3 precision aka 3% hit right off the bat Kren.

By missing a skill to hit, I meant Colossal Smash, not Precision

[DiabloRock]

I agree with the forecast being very bleak for Fury dps. You mention Slam being expensive, but everything is now. Every talent we use (minus BT, which is still 20) has a rage cost of 30, and whatever they did to our rage generation isn't helping to keep us afloat. The Cleave CD bites, and the RB isn't what it's cracked up to be, as it's only active about 40% of the time, only hits a single mob, and has an outstandingly long CD of 6 seconds... Our primary dps talent has a 6 sec CD?!
The loss of ArP killed melee classes, but especially warriors, who lived and died by it until yesterday.
Now that warriors can't even stay competitive with the other dps classes, what use are we to a raid group? Even if you argue that we can provide buffs to the raid (+dmg as arms, +crit as fury), well, guess what? Those buffs can be had from other classes that will do significantly more dps now, making us obsolete.
I've heard that things might somewhat level out towards endgame Cata, but what do we do in the meantime? You mean that I can't get invited to a raid for the next 2 months because I can't provide competitive dps or a raid buff that no other class can?
For some reason, Blizzard seems to be prejudiced towards warrior dps. I get the distinct feeling they would prefer us to /delete and reroll pally, but I have sentimental attachment to my warrior, and by God, I want a fix. Any rumors of any fixes coming down the pike yet? Blizzard simply cannot ignore all the complaints from warriors on their forums; there's even a petition being signed for immediate action.
I pay good money every month to play a character I enjoy. Now they nerf that toon to the point of obsolescence and tell me that everything may or may not work itself out by the time I hit level 85 in two months' time? I'm not gonna go overboard like some people and say, "Oh, I'm gonna delete my toon, quit the game, etc", but there has to be a fix for warriors, and it needs to be on the very near horizon.

[Krenian]

I agree with the forecast being very bleak for Fury dps. You mention Slam being expensive, but everything is now. Every talent we use (minus BT, which is still 20) has a rage cost of 30, and whatever they did to our rage generation isn't helping to keep us afloat. The Cleave CD bites, and the RB isn't what it's cracked up to be, as it's only active about 40% of the time, only hits a single mob, and has an outstandingly long CD of 6 seconds... Our primary dps talent has a 6 sec CD?!
The loss of ArP killed melee classes, but especially warriors, who lived and died by it until yesterday.
Now that warriors can't even stay competitive with the other dps classes, what use are we to a raid group? Even if you argue that we can provide buffs to the raid (+dmg as arms, +crit as fury), well, guess what? Those buffs can be had from other classes that will do significantly more dps now, making us obsolete.
I've heard that things might somewhat level out towards endgame Cata, but what do we do in the meantime? You mean that I can't get invited to a raid for the next 2 months because I can't provide competitive dps or a raid buff that no other class can?
For some reason, Blizzard seems to be prejudiced towards warrior dps. I get the distinct feeling they would prefer us to /delete and reroll pally, but I have sentimental attachment to my warrior, and by God, I want a fix. Any rumors of any fixes coming down the pike yet? Blizzard simply cannot ignore all the complaints from warriors on their forums; there's even a petition being signed for immediate action.
I pay good money every month to play a character I enjoy. Now they nerf that toon to the point of obsolescence and tell me that everything may or may not work itself out by the time I hit level 85 in two months' time? I'm not gonna go overboard like some people and say, "Oh, I'm gonna delete my toon, quit the game, etc", but there has to be a fix for warriors, and it needs to be on the very near horizon.

Calm yourself. Yes, it looks bleak. But Blizzard is not intentionally saying "Haha chakin n00bs, reroll or gtfo". Associating the changes with some ill tempered Blizzard members wanting to make our lives hell is not the way to go.

Right now, there are a few things that need to be looked at. But to say that it's doom and gloom and blaming Blizzard for wanting us to reroll is not the right way to go.

As a community, it is our duty to see what will happen and to try to convince Blizzard that it is nearly unplayable at this time. The problem is that it's going to be very hard:

1) Blizzard has stated that they are very well and aware of the situation that may arise with 4.0.1 and the skills and although it may be pretty bad, they are working it around the new Cataclysm game and as such, will not put much weight on the events in Wrath's final months to do anything different to the talents and skills, unless it is absolutely gamebreaking and mindboggling. At this time, I sincerely doubt Blizzard feels Fury Warriors cannot be played. We may have a rather dull rotation right now and the fact of the matter remains that our damage was pretty much neutered, however the class itself can hold it's own and not be completely broken and that leaves me skeptical of them fixing it.

2) We're missing out on some talents that we're supposed to have. Furthermore, we have pretty much come to a new era for Fury dps that will make us have to re-think everything we've thought about so far about DPSing as Fury Warriors. With this, we need to understand that there will be a lot of overreacting and "ACK THE WORLD IS FALLING!!!111one". Let us do the tests, let's see how it goes, and if we're at the point that it's simply unbearable, we'll have to address it with sound logic to Blizzard and let them see that it simply does not work.

Right now, it'll be hard however if we can show a lot of things to the point that it may affect Cataclysm dps scheme of things, then we may be looked at. But really, it's like I said: It's going to be a rough couple of months.

[DiabloRock]

Okay, so now that we've gotten the bad stuff off our chests... Are there any concrete numbers-based things we can do to help stay relevant for the next couple months? I'm getting lots of conflicting reports on what stats should be, how to gem, etc. I don't wanna be atop dps charts again, I just want to stay close to competitive. Are there particular stats we can safely reduce to bump others and increase dps via reforge?

[Ion]

By missing a skill to hit, I meant Colossal Smash, not Precision

Colossus smash is a 20s cooldown for fury anyway. Not a big deal.

The bigger deal is that enrage lasts 9 seconds and the cooldown on raging blow is 6 seconds. You can extend your period of time spent enraged by creative use of zerker rage (which gives you 5 rage with the glyph...not great, but it's better than nothing), but lacking that 10% damage buff is decidedly unimpressive. It also doesn't help that our mastery is at best mediocre too...

What I did last night was regem for socket bonuses, basically. Gemmed a bunch of hit: 2x20 hit gems in my offhand, a bunch of str/hit gems in various other blue slots, and str/haste gems in previously-arp-gemmed yellow sockets (most of them)...put on the 245 hit trinket and the war token, too.

My rage gen was typically fairly ok (we did a toc10 (well...9) to get a better feel for things...but everything died to fast...maybe we'll do icc 10 to try more out later this week), but my dps was on the low side. Of course, our mage was doing completely absurd dps as was the hunter, while the dk, paladin (with smourne) and I struggled significantly below them...so it's kind of difficult to tell if it was our dps being low or theirs being way through the roof.

I had a fairly decent uptime on my ability to press Raging Blow, but my actual Enrage uptime was ... variable, I think. I honestly was still trying to get used to the rotation so it was tough to keep track of everything...if we do something more significant I'll try to remember to log it for better analysis. Anyway, I know I had to press Zerker rage not really on cooldown, but reasonably often if I wanted to be sure to keep Raging Blow on CD (or close to on CD)...it's got a 24 second CD with Intensify Rage...I probably hit it between every 24 to 40 seconds depending on my luck.

I feel like I did about as well as someone unfamiliar with how the new fury works could do, but my dps was still lacking (as was the DK's and the paladins, really) relative to what it was and relative to the mage and hunter in my group.

Also, I looked at TGM's enrage proc math...while it looks like it's right, it predicts a much higher uptime than I experienced. So either something is off with the math (which I don't see, but I will admit I didn't make a huge study of it) or something is off with the proc rate (which seems like it's certainly possible)...or I missed something (which is probably the most likely, unfortunately).

[Krenian]

Colossus smash is a 20s cooldown for fury anyway. Not a big deal.

The bigger deal is that enrage lasts 9 seconds and the cooldown on raging blow is 6 seconds. You can extend your period of time spent enraged by creative use of zerker rage (which gives you 5 rage with the glyph...not great, but it's better than nothing), but lacking that 10% damage buff is decidedly unimpressive. It also doesn't help that our mastery is at best mediocre too...

What I did last night was regem for socket bonuses, basically. Gemmed a bunch of hit: 2x20 hit gems in my offhand, a bunch of str/hit gems in various other blue slots, and str/haste gems in previously-arp-gemmed yellow sockets (most of them)...put on the 245 hit trinket and the war token, too.

My rage gen was typically fairly ok (we did a toc10 (well...9) to get a better feel for things...but everything died to fast...maybe we'll do icc 10 to try more out later this week), but my dps was on the low side. Of course, our mage was doing completely absurd dps as was the hunter, while the dk, paladin (with smourne) and I struggled significantly below them...so it's kind of difficult to tell if it was our dps being low or theirs being way through the roof.

I had a fairly decent uptime on my ability to press Raging Blow, but my actual Enrage uptime was ... variable, I think. I honestly was still trying to get used to the rotation so it was tough to keep track of everything...if we do something more significant I'll try to remember to log it for better analysis. Anyway, I know I had to press Zerker rage not really on cooldown, but reasonably often if I wanted to be sure to keep Raging Blow on CD (or close to on CD)...it's got a 24 second CD with Intensify Rage...I probably hit it between every 24 to 40 seconds depending on my luck.

I feel like I did about as well as someone unfamiliar with how the new fury works could do, but my dps was still lacking (as was the DK's and the paladins, really) relative to what it was and relative to the mage and hunter in my group.

Also, I looked at TGM's enrage proc math...while it looks like it's right, it predicts a much higher uptime than I experienced. So either something is off with the math (which I don't see, but I will admit I didn't make a huge study of it) or something is off with the proc rate (which seems like it's certainly possible)...or I missed something (which is probably the most likely, unfortunately).

The damage of Colossal smash isn't the real kicker for that one. It's it's effect of allowing attacks to go through all the armor for six seconds that'll give us a significant boost in our DPS. It's our 100% ArP that disappeared due to the change.

But yeah, Raging Blow kinda sucks right now. It's too cumbersome in my opinion.

[Ronninn]

I think 2 good places for Blizz to start are : 1st buff Raging Blow. 2nd put Deep Wounds on tier 1 of Arms tree so we can at least have that back and benifit from our 2 piece Tier 10 bonus.

[Thegreatme]

ladies and gentlemen, I think I found the winner.


this equation is no longer focused on just crit's effect. basically it determines the % likely hood that enrage will be active for any given second.

step 1)hits per second

auto attacks:
((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))

special attacks
assuming a perfect rotation you would add 7/6 to the above equation, when I am not in a rush to figure everything ever out I will go back and break this part down so it be more accurate


Step 2) chance to proc:
chance to not get any procs:
0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))

Chance to get a proc:
1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))

step 3) dealing with overlaps/ refreshes:

to do this we need to determine the how likely it is that for each given second enrage will be active with X time remaining. so basically, it's chance to proc (0s) + chance duration will be at 9s, 8s, 7s, 6s, 5s, 4s, 3s, 2s, and 1s.

1s left
1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))) + (0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))^8

2s left
1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))) + (0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))^7

you get the idea, the exponent at the very end changes.


EDIT: I figured it out, it's additive.

[Thegreatme]

I suggest you stop reading now unless you are really masochistic.








% likelyhood of enrage being up at any given second:
(1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))) * (0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))^8)+(1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))) * (0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))^7)+(1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))) * (0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))^6) + (1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))) * (0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))^5)+(1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))) * (0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))^4)+(1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))) * (0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))^3)+(1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))) * (0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))^2)


I warned you.

[Chamenas]

What the freaking hell?

[Thegreatme]

it's basically the same thing repeated 9 times, with a single number changing for each repetition, but you can't simplfy it because that's how exponents work :P

[Krenian]

Why do you even do this math is beyond me. That's a headcase no one but math fucking physics understand.

Enjoy your chinese.

[Ion]

Ah...I've done some maths...they're sketchy, I think...but I think they're simpler:

Basically the interesting things are: Your average swings per second (swings per second for your main hand + swings per second for your offhand) which is just 1/sMH + 1/sOH, where your s values are modified by your average flurry uptime (1-(1-c)^n from above).

I used a slightly higher n (4.76 to be specific...I can explain how I came up with that but it's kind of circular logic...you can use 4 if you want), figured out my average swings per 9 seconds (adding in 5 globals...which MIGHT be sketchy since it's potentially dubious that we'll actually have an attack to do on all 5 of those globals (though 4 should be almost certain: 2xBT + 2xRB)), then it's fairly simple to figure out your chance to not proc enrage in those 9 seconds (it's as above in TGM's formula...ish: 0.91^<num swings+globals>)...subtract that from 1 to get your Enrage uptime (mine turned out to be roughly 70%, which meshes reasonably well with what I actually observed).

Specific formula are ... well I'm in a bit of a rush and I did it in a spreadsheet...but they're mostly known formula.

Edit: Also modified the "swings in 9 seconds" number by my white hit rate for additional accuracy...just thought I'd make note of that, too.

[-=Tuf=-]

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/27187...f-oct-13-2010/

I found that wandering around - I'm not sure if its legit or someones re-write;

Rather than try and address multiple threads, I'm just going to plop our current thoughts in this one post. Please excuse the brevity.

1) We think Fury, Arms, Feral cat and Retribution dps is too low and we will be buffing them.

2) We think mage dps is too high, especially Fire, and will be nerfing it.

3) We think Shadow priest dps is too high, but that's largely a result of Shadow Word: Death spam, which is tough on healers. We'll be fixing that.

4) We think Destro warlock dps is too high, but that's largely a result of Searing Pain spam, which is tough on tanks. We'll be fixing that.

5) As we suspected, PvP dps is just too high given that the health pools of Cataclysm haven't kicked in yet. While competitive PvP is over for the moment, we still want the environment to feel better so we will be buffing resilience. This change might be reverted at level 85.

There will probably be more changes after another night of raiding and BGs. Many of the bug fixes we have made today will affect dps as well. Stay tuned.

As a side note, regardless of changes to come or not; What are Fury Wars gemming now? I have seen people say to go for Hard Cap of Hit asap, then gem all STR. Some say go straight STR no matter your hit, and still others claim 50% crit is your goal then fill in the rest with Hit.

Thanks for input.

-T

[Krenian]

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/27187...f-oct-13-2010/

I found that wandering around - I'm not sure if its legit or someones re-write;



As a side note, regardless of changes to come or not; What are Fury Wars gemming now? I have seen people say to go for Hard Cap of Hit asap, then gem all STR. Some say go straight STR no matter your hit, and still others claim 50% crit is your goal then fill in the rest with Hit.

Thanks for input.

-T

The general consensus is that there is NO consensus. That's the problem.

I've been going and socketing per color. We now have three viable choices when socketing:

Red: Bold Cardinal Ruby (+20 Str)
Yellow: Inscribed Amatrine (10 Str and 10 Crit)
Blue: Etched Dreadstone (10 Str and 10 Hit)

That's pretty much what you wanna go do for now till you're hit capped. Then the blue one changes.

[-=Tuf=-]

I think I will just roll Prot for now until the dust settles, haha.

I did find the actual Blue Response on the BLizzard Forums; http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...87856197&sid=1

At least we are getting looked at, and with the servers down atm, maybe things will be brighter sooner rather then later.

-T